this final arc that so many people have been looking forward to, has just been a disjointed mess. ...Tom King stumbles and falls over the finish line.

IMO, King has been stumbling since issue 50

yeah. everything since 50 has been a mess. ....i'd even go as far as to say he was in trouble even as far back as his first arc.

agreed! i've been saying this for a long long time!

because he had no plan. he's just stalling. waiting for this all to be over. he's a fraud.

i strongly feel that Tom King had no idea what he wanted to do with all the issues that DC gave hime for Batman. he's just been treading water trying to figure out something "epic". but instead he embarrassed himself with this hot mess. it's about time the fraud finally had all this blow up in his face.

Great first sentence.

I don't believe Thomas and Selina had 'That" kind of relationship. It didn't feel or hint in that direction to me.

Like I said, I could be wrong. But really did get a vice of Thomas having sexual feelings for his Selina, but fighting to keep them down. Which would explain why Martha Joker shot Selina 2.0.

Above sentence should read "vibe" not vice.

The story of #84 is crystal clear. Thomas gets laid with flashpoint Selina giving him a new hope and sense for his life after the death of his son and his jokerized wife (killed by himself). He even stop killing the rogues but the Selina dies fighting crime on his side and the darkness backs to the hearth of Thomas and when he realize Bruce is repeating his own story he decides to step and "save" his boy. That's the story and I think is easy to understand. Now when comes to like or dislike this issue #84 is up to you. I liked it but I understand if others don't. I think King's Run overall is terrible but this issue was very interesting for me.

Except Thomas didn't get laid by Flashpoint Selina, they had a father/daughter relationship. Also, she wasn't killed, she was paralyzed in Flashpoint.

I don't think that's a father/daughter thing.

I think their relationship was very clearly NOT sexual.

You don´t need to see 2 people in bed to know they have something.

Ok man. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Oh thank you father.

You’re welcome my son

i really liked your analogy saying that wisdom tooth extraction is better than this. i had all four done at once, and that was a better experience that reading this.

Thanks. It went really smoothly. It didn't take as long as reading this issue did and was virtually painless. So, I was right.

hahahaha! too funny! glad to hear it went smoothly.

beautifully stated, DC Stuff !!!!

Thanks

@DC Stuff - you're welcome. @Dennis G. Morales - most definitely! i see his name on a book, and i won't even give it a second look. i just cannot wait till his his next and final miserable issue to be done. then his goofy ass gets THE BOOT !!!

lol #SayNoToKing

hahahahahaa

Isn't there some kind of editor that has to stop this crap from happening? I want a refund.

Putting in quotes from writers can be good, I actually like that, but in Kings story it feels out of place.

What do you mean, "how did he escape the Flashpoint timeline?" He jogged away from the end of the universe! Man, you are just too dense to understand the greatness of Tom King!

Yeah, this may as well be some overcomplicated trash, but this time I doubt. I Am Suicide had some substance, contrary to this arc. I don't care anymore, I just wait for King's successor to cut the crap and bring Alfred back with no shits given.

I truly wonder if Alfred's death is the hyped up change and not the marriage. That'd be so cathartic, honestly. All this time we were promised a wedding and we'll never get it from Tom King, at least. The first three arcs felt like they had something to say. After that, the run has just been a meandering affair. The "I Am..." trilogy is one I remember enjoying, but I don't dare go back to. Just in case it's as bad as the rest and I just didn't notice because King's tricks weren't as old.

I hope whoever takes over next, that it's very different from this run.

"Alfred signaled. He's safe." I don't think our favorite butler is really dead. I hope.

Well, it says at the beginning of the issue in an editor's note that this issue takes place before issue 77, so I don't think that means he's alive.

Exactly. This suggests that Al was save before Damian enter Gotham.

Or he was just saying he was okay and didn't think he'd be killed.

We'll see,but I really hope that Al is ok. You can't have Batman without his trusted butler.

I'd argue that you could. I'm not too broken up about Alfred's death. I don't really care. But putting that aside, I truly do think Batman is possible without Alfred. It'd have to play a role beyond just being the status quo, but it could be done (and hopefully done well).

Yes, i don't think its a problem to kill a major character as long as it affects the story properly. The death of Damian was short but it was well done for exemple and even though i liked the series it was one of the problems of HiC. We can only that if Alfred is really dead, it will be made interesting

I'm not surprised that you're not broken up about it. It was handled poorly and was just there to shock. I rolled my eyes when I saw it. For example, the recent "death" of Leslie Thompkins in DC was done much better. And I'm not even quarter as much attached to her as I am to Alfred.

I was pretty frustrated Leslie wasn't killed, to be honest. That may have been a real status quo shaker. As for Alfred... if only his death meant something, anything, maybe it'd be different. But King established himself as another JJ Abrams, who sets up big twists, but never offers answers. What's the point of setting up the marriage, and now Alfred's death, if they won't impact the run, since he's finishing it in 2 months?

Nihilist - i really like your analogy of comparing Tom King to JJ Abrams.

I don't think Batman knew about the Alfred threat. Damian and Tim found out themselves and Damian chose to go anyway after learning what he did. My source? The book.

Actually, I missed the part Egon brought up... now I am not sure anymore. It sounds like Alfred escaped Gotham and signaled he was safe, so Batman sends Damian in knowing that... I guess we will see. I heard it apparently isn't a fake out because of how people reacted to #77. It might have been written so it could go either way.

The sweetest justice will be when the next writer completely ignores this nonsense run.

Tom King has 2 go-to jokes in 80 issues: Bat-Cat/Boat-Street and "I'm Batman so I punch people."

Solicitations say Alfred is indeed dead. And what other than a dead Alfred should be the big change King was teasing? Surely not the beach yoga.

Beach yoga is a pretty big change for Batman, you have to admit.

Also 3 jokes... "Kite Man... Hell Yeah"

Oh, yeah, definitely, beach yoga sure is something new. I just hate teasing stuff, promising revolutions, an then doing nothing with them. If King wanted to kill Alfred of, he should have done that 40 issues ago.

Seeing how King likes to be "deep and profound", the big change is probably Batman realizing he can be happy and still be Batman.

That'd be so stupid. Unless happiness equates to marriage.

Am I The only one, who doesn’t care at all about whether Batman is happy or not? He should just fight crime& concentrate on that. If I want to see love stories I watch Vampire Diaries.

I don't think you are but that doesn't mean everybody does.

I think King doesn’t even care at that point. If you look at his scripts on Twitter it shows quite well, that he doesn’t care much about writing a good story.

to tell you the truth, i don't think he ever cared. but now that he knows that he was fired before his 100th, he cares even LESS. .....it's hard to imagine a level even lower that the lack of caring that he had when he first started this awful run.

Is DC really in trouble? Or is this your personal opinion based on your dislike for Tom King's work?

I think he cared at the beginning, but after the marriage everything turned just really bad. DC is in no trouble other comics are doing just fine.

here you go Egon. read it for yourself. - - - - https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowitz/2019/07/31/where-does-dc-fit-in-atts-vision-for-warnermedia/?fbclid=IwAR17m94Fh7DUdCaN0mHfipeyWbRsO8sVfCWqteOiewMhwaSQRTz3zbQvYX8#5ca0419779b7

DC has already ended Vertigo and and for all intents and purposes has ended Mad Magazine. does that sound like a personal opinion, or does it sound like DC is in trouble?

Actually I read that comics in general are all on a decline because kids these days just don't read them like they use to. And that a lot of the fans today are long time fans

They didnt end Vertigo, they changed The Name.

no. DC did shut down Vertigo. there are tons of articles about it. Black Label is not the same as what Vertigo was. https://www.slashfilm.com/vertigo-comics-shut-down-dc-comics/

comics have been on the decline for years, but there was a core audience keeping it going. unfortunately both Marvel and now DC have chosen to turn their backs on and alienate their longtime fans. they've divided their fanbase.

LOL a Chinese friend told me DC wants to send comics to Chinese fans but most of them hate Batman issues and this writer. GOD BLESS DC LOL.

LILIANREVO i wonder why DC would want to do such a cruel thing to China?

DC want to explore their market to save the declining sale of current issues I guess. But it won't work, I bet u my life. Few people in China like this writer and they prefer SS, TT and Tomasi better. They hate this writer so much that they call themselvesTK PTSD or Batcat PTSD LOL.

TK PTSD and Batcat PTSD are actually perfect names!

I read the article myconius. To me, it doesn't seem that DC is in trouble i.e. facing extinction/doom/bankruptcy/etc. Just the "Big Boss" in charge has some other ideas. Sad, sure. But it doesn't mean an end to Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and the others. And just for clarification, when say "Big Boss" I don't mean Snake.

AH! if Snake was in charge, they'd be number 1 in the industry!!! ..no. i definitely don't think DC will be closing up shop any time soon. but this tightening of the belt does have me worried. laying off Mark Chiarello was a major loss. and i really feel that taking away Swamp Thing, Hellblazer and Animal Man away from Vertigo with the new52 was a huge mistake. i just hope they don't end print and phase into digital. as much as i may complain about clutter, i love my books and comics.

"I love my books and comics". I can get behind that.

Issue 74 : batman gets beaten because of his broken back and escape from the pit not knowing what to do Issue 75 : still broken he tries to find the help of someone in the mountains and get rescued by cat Issue 76 : moved in paris, bruce is healing Where is the plothole ? It is as easy finding an explanation as saying this doesn't make sense

Darkseid24 - Thomas Wayne was a doctor before becoming Batman. that being said, he put a band-aid of Bruce's broken back, then kissed his boo boo and made it all better.

Sure& next issue Bruce is making Origamis in Hokkaido. In issue 78 he will drink some tea with Putin, because why not?

hahahaha! no. next issue with be Bruce eating thirty pounds of chili with extra hot peppers. ...issue 78 will just be filled with 9 panel grid pages of Bruce sitting on the toilet. the comic will end with a double page splash of Bruce flushing the toilet. X"D

Nah your both wrong. Next issue has Selina teaching him pole dancing and issue 78 has Bruce revealing he's secretly been a cross dress named Fluffy Tutu since way back when Bane broke him the first time.

cross dresser ......... One of these days I shall learn to type !!!! lol

Lol

Fluffy Tutu . . . . . . . PERFECT!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂

LOL

The Bane part of his plan was to emotionally destroy Bruce and make him more willing to stop being Batman and be his son again. Hence the line "You were defeated. Broken. Body and soul. That's behind you. In Gotham. Now, here it is time to rebuild. To show them how strong you really are. Son. My little boy. You don't have to worry anymore. About anything. Your father's got you." Notice he says to rely on his father when he says rebuild himself? He is manipulating Bruce emotionally into

thinking his whole life spent as Batman was a waste and that he could have the chance to make it all good again by having his parents back. A plan I believe Batman would not go along with, without his mental breakdown. At the end Batman says "I remember the blood, the pearls. Knowing I would never see you again. I was too... difficult. I... forsook my life. I surrendered to a vow. And now what was that worth?" And then Thomas encourages that mindset with peptalk.

(Also I still don't entirely buy that it is Thomas. I still can't get over that Hush took his spot in the gang in Batman #72's Flashback.)

But the problem with that is Bruce's craziness is not crazy at all. No one believes him, sure, but he's remained on point about Bane. So that leads me to believe that his judgment, while strained, is still very much there.

Plus, Bruce knows Thomas worked with Bane to help break him. That would further strain the relationship they have. Why not help defeat Bane with his son, reconnecting with him, and then pull the Weekend at Bernie's with Martha's corpse?

Why approach the emotional manipulation from such an antagonistic angle, unlike most emotional manipulators would?

His end goal is to have a family again, he is going about it in the stupidest way possible. So you better be right about the Hush thing or this Thomas Wayne Batman is a chump.

I think everything is quite stupid here. Bruce is a grown up man, so I don’t think emotional manipulation by a mass murderer would work here. King writes Bruce as a fragile personality, but while Bruce has issues, he never is so weak as written here. And point also is: everything Bane did to him is forced& unbelievable.

That’s why you guys are delusional, you only think Batman can be written one way. Humans are irrational in behavior, and Bruce is human it doesn’t matter what someone else thinks when it’s not genuine.

Bruce is that special kind of human that can have their back broken only for it to be healed within a few days.

I don't think he can only be written one way, but by the logic of this series' characterization of him, it still doesn't really work. But the characterization is dependant on the story King wants to tell at that moment, so no wonder it's inconsistent.

Me neither, but he shouldn’t be written out of character& that’s exactly how he’s written in Kings run. There are so many problems with this run.

So much judgment of parts of the story that just haven't been told yet. King tweeted today that an explanation of Flashpoint Batman is coming. I honestly don't get the criticism that an unexplained thing won't be explained because it hasn't been explained YET. Did I miss the news about #73 being the last issue in King's run?

It's not so much a complaint to me. It's an annoyance. It's the only reason I'm interested in this plot line and this issue's focus. So to have to wait almost 25 issues for the answer, if not more, when in the past these answers have almost always been underwhelming and lackluster, is annoying.

Fair enough. For me I tend to wait for the end of a story before judging the story. Totally fair though to turn a story off in the middle. I do that all the time and if I were hating this run that's what I'd do. I actually love the waiting because it builds anticipation and because I've enjoyed every issue so far but everyone's opinion is equally valid.

I'm not sure which answers have been lackluster though. From my perspective really nothing has been answered yet. I get the frustration over having to wait so long for the answers and I'd feel the same if I weren't digging the book but I'm honestly confused as to what's been answered.

Everything about this entire run has been lackluster and that’s being generous.

@Batman Jones. im willing to give writers time usually, but it’s been 73 issues & there are not any answers.

73 issues and we knew from the start to expect over 100. It is probably too late for rewrites as well.

If solicits are any indicator, Tom King has definitely rewrote parts of this run. Also, maybe if the story was actually properly paced then we wouldn't be complaining about how long it is. But it's paced like shit. The Knightmares arc is the epitome of that.

Yes, I for sure didn’t complain about the length of Knightfall or No Mans Land, but those stories were better written.

It's the fact that nothing else has really happened in these 73 issues. It's all one big really lackluster storyline so far. I haven't read Knightfall yet, but I can bet it didn't have fever dream arcs. I can bet there were real fights with villains and sublots that all had their conclusions along the way. And I can bet the writer didn't tell everyone it was going to all be a fight with Bane spread over 100 issues!

Knightfall was also just a big dumb 90s' story not unlike Death of Superman. Tom King's run isn't. It is philosophical, experimental, and literary. Clearly something that divides Batman fans practically down the middle. I would understand the complaints if this were the only Batman book on the shelves, but there are so many to choose from. Why can't one of them break the mold and experiment?

(Also I like Knightfall, sorry for calling it dumb.)

(Also I do get the complaints because that book happens to be called *Batman*, so it is mainly treated as the main Batman storyline, would people care nearly as much if this was being done in a book not DC's flagship title?)

I don’t think they (we) would be as angry if it weren’t the main title.

"philosophical, experimental, and literary" are not the words I'd use to describe this run. I'd go for "pretentious, poorly constructed and sophomoric."

They are the same thing really. All philosophical or literary work gets labeled pretentious by somebody.

It reminds me of something Sam Kieth's friend said in the back of I Before E. How his and Bill Messner Loebs book Epicurus was hailed as

Well-written, philosophical, thought provoking, emotional, but also amateur and sophomoric by others.

Well, I don't know if their book was that bad, but this one definitely is.

Hear, hear, Br'er

I just wanted to start my riot, when you said Knightfall is dumb lol I’ve read works of real philosophers& Kings Batman run is not philosophical. I assure you, rather pseudo philosophical. And can you blame people? Batman is one of the most important comic runs of DC, it’s canon& King clearly doesn’t know how to write these characters. He doesn’t know them, so of course fans are upset, since Batman run defines the characters. If King wanted to experiment he could have done black label.

However he clearly isn’t talented enough for writing an important run like Batman. Maybe he’s Didios lover, I can’t find another explanation, why he has so many freedoms in DC.

i'm definitely in agreement with Darkseid24 here. Batman is DC's biggest cash cow, and they handed it to someone that doesn't understand or respect the character or his mythology. he's too busy breaking the character down, to the point of not being recognizable anymore. and he never shows the slightest inkling that he'll ever build him back up. Batman is supposed to be the ideal. the peak of human performance both physically and mentally. but NOT Tom King's Batman. his Batman is pathetic.

Agreed. And it seems most of modern writers have no respect for the characters.