I mean, all of the Watchmen characters were just versions of the Charlton characters so saying they need to be respected seems a little ridiculous. Did Moore show respect for the characters he pretty much plagiarized? No, and to be clear I know he didn't "plagiarize" them but he did copy them for his characters. I think you're taking your hatred for Johns and making more out of this than there really is. Dr. Manhattan is just a copy of Captain Atom so he's not really his own character.

^ what? All of his points are valid, the watchmen characters are revered. Yes, they're just ripped from Charlton characters, but their motivations and history are extremely different, and that was the magic of Moore and the original story. Dr. Manhattan definitely is not a copy of Captain Atom, if you've read the original Watchmen comic and this story even. You seem to be just in love with this story to not accept any criticism of it from your response

also, looking at Darkseid's past reviews of this series, he gave them high scores. So your point of hatred for Johns makes no sense? I happen to agree with Darkseid here, this ending is immensely disappointing given the wait we had to endure and the hype that was built around this event

Thank you @ allenquanobi @Talon1load It’s true, that I don’t like Johns as a writer, but as you can see on my past reviews of Doomsday Clock, that didnt stop me from giving him high scores, if he deserved it. Watchmen are their own characters indeed. Similarities between Watchmen characters & the DC characters are part of the story in Watchmen. You didnt get Watchmen, if you think they are just a copy. By your logic Thanos would deserve no respect, since his character was inspired by Darkseid.

As a fan of Dr. Manhattan & of the Watchmen characters in general I am disappointed by DDC in the end. Johns didnt need the Watchmen characters for this plot, nor did it give, what it promised- another Crisis that would fix the DC timeline.

I actually didn’t care for this issue but thanks for attacking me for my points. I mentioned Darkseids hatred of Johns because it’s something we’ve discussed on here quite a bit. He gave them different characteristics but Moore really just warped preexisting characters to come up with his dark dystopian comic. You can get as heated as you like but my point still stands that faulting Johns for a doing what Moore did is ridiculous.

wait, that still doesn't address darkseid's review lol. Darkseid mentioned that he didn't enjoy what this issue/story did with the watchment characters, not what moore did in the original watchmen. he is faulting johns because what of what he did in this story, not what moore did in the other one

I’m aware. I was saying that to highlight that he’s made a Johns for doing something that Moore essentially did in the first place. That’s my opinion. If that doesn’t work for you then that’s ok.

@Talon1load If I was just hating on Johns I would have never given any Doomsday Clock issue 9 or 10 point, don’t you think? Watchmen was a darker universe than the normal DC universe, but that doesnt mean Watchmen characters arent their own characters. It also doesnt mean writers can disrespect their Legacy just to praise their favorite character. Thats the very definition of bad writing.

Talon1load style to argue is ever triying to ridiculize everyone who disagrees with him. He uses lines as "seems a little ridiculous", "thanks for attacking me" (when no one is attacking him), "You can get as heated as you like" (when no one but him is heated), "whatever help you sleeps at night" (that one was for me in another thread). So Talon is just a dirty debater. His way is just disrespect and provocation with little punchlines as those. And he dosn't even realize is him whom provokes.

Reread through your entire rant and think about what you just said. You literally just proved my point about you.

What point? When we were talking you just throw a sarcastic comment looking to ridiculize me. If that's what you consider to make a point you just proved you are a dirty debater and you don't even realize.

No one actually promised a reboot or crisis coming out of Doomsday Clock. From the beginning, Johns a confrontation between the philosophies of Superman and Dr. Manhattan instead of a brawl between Justice League and Watchmen. You can judge how well it performed to that promise.

Doomsday Clock did back then when it was announced& the Button teased that change.

?

Zzzzzzz.

we all had, but just u donno ur already dead

I think the Watchmen trappings give it a feeling of weight, but most everyone who cares is really interested in the continuity/Superman stuff. It's a weird thing that won't age well at all.

Yeah this is a very good point; Watchmen is timeless. Doomsday Clock is really of one period in time and will definitely not age well.

This review is big fail

let's see how long it takes for Gotham Girl to disappear from DC Comics, never to be mentioned again.

Amen @myconius . Gotham Girl is just an homage to Tom King´s daughter "Claire". Yes, he just made his daughter a bad copy of Supergirl. Maybe a cameo the day of her birthday would be ok but made his daughter a leading charachter in Batman comic just because he can and want to is very disrespectful and unprofessional.

we are reading the same book. but those high scores must be high off the tom king kool aid.

They are reading his paychecks from DC.

Okay one more thing I just realized. Batman is holding that kryptonite rock in his gloved hands and GG touches with her gloved hands and gets her powers shouldn't that mean that Batman now would have powers?????

That means King is very careless and just as we talked after Batman #84 inconsistencies DC really need some people to review issues looking for flaws before printing.

I hated way more than you did...but, it's Clark who said he didn't follow football in that issue

i think Tom King only killed Alfred out of some desperate attempt to have a lasting effect on Batman comics in general. that bozo doesn't realize that Alfred has been killed before and will eventually come back. the only real lasting effect Tom King has had on Batman was making the single worst Batman run ever in existence.

Selina and Bruce didn't get married, in the end they decided they don't need to as what they have is more than it. Meanwhile, Tom King kept circle-jerking us about a wedding tease. Batman could find much better than her or actually reformed criminals, why he can't be in a relationship for long is because his life as Batman is sure to inflict a toll on any potential partner.

Because no one does care

Agree with myconius. Tom King thing is to kill and degrade characters, He just leave but saddly his mess remains.

Nihilist you'll have to excuse Tom King for all the unaddressed plot threads left hanging, and every detail he has overlooked. ...he was too busy patting himself on the back for being so clever, and eating a cucumber sandwich.

Of course. And he got this sandwich at Porky's, let's not forget that!

hahahaha! he was awarded a year supply of cucumber sandwiches when he signed up for the Fall Out Boy fan club. :D

so this is the second time DC has killed Alfred in the comics, right?

You mean in main continuity @myconius? Because I remember in main continuity he died long time ago in 60's smashed by a rock when saving the life of the Dynamic Duo and then soon returned as a very weird rogue named The Outsider. In Dark Knight Returns Alfred dies at the end. And recently he died in Injustice killed by Zaz for Superman order. And maybe there are another 1 or 2 times outside main continuity but right now I don't remember at all.

@Detective Chimp - yeah. in the main continuity. he sacrificed himself to save Brice & Dick, and was replaced by Aunt Harriet, then due to Alfred's popularity they just brought him back. i suspect somewhere down the road DC will be widdling Alfred being alive back into continuity, after they're done trying to capitalize on ALFRED R.I.P. ..not sure if i want to actually waste $4.99 on that.

King has always been cheap and lazy. i haven't really liked any of his run since the first issue. it's all been forced and contrived storytelling. he's just not a good writer.

DC really need fresh blood. Not only in writers but in the direction board.

Batman and Superman are some of my favorite characters in comics, but right now i'm just so emotionally uninvested in everything that DC has been doing. it's to the point where if they just stopped making single issue comics tomorrow i would care one bit.

*wouldn't care one bit.

@myconius I'm feeling as going for the same path. If they remove Bruce Wayne just as removed Alfred I won't care about BATMAN anymore.

Maybe DC just needs a scary drop in their sales to stop printing crap. They don't care for the readers anymore.

Great first sentence.

I don't believe Thomas and Selina had 'That" kind of relationship. It didn't feel or hint in that direction to me.

Like I said, I could be wrong. But really did get a vice of Thomas having sexual feelings for his Selina, but fighting to keep them down. Which would explain why Martha Joker shot Selina 2.0.

Above sentence should read "vibe" not vice.

The story of #84 is crystal clear. Thomas gets laid with flashpoint Selina giving him a new hope and sense for his life after the death of his son and his jokerized wife (killed by himself). He even stop killing the rogues but the Selina dies fighting crime on his side and the darkness backs to the hearth of Thomas and when he realize Bruce is repeating his own story he decides to step and "save" his boy. That's the story and I think is easy to understand. Now when comes to like or dislike this issue #84 is up to you. I liked it but I understand if others don't. I think King's Run overall is terrible but this issue was very interesting for me.

Except Thomas didn't get laid by Flashpoint Selina, they had a father/daughter relationship. Also, she wasn't killed, she was paralyzed in Flashpoint.

I don't think that's a father/daughter thing.

I think their relationship was very clearly NOT sexual.

You don´t need to see 2 people in bed to know they have something.

Ok man. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Oh thank you father.

You’re welcome my son

writing himself into corners and trying to fake his way through it sums up Tom King's entire run perfectly.

King tried to get some manufactured feels from Alfred's death, but i felt nothing but apathy. this joke of a run is NOT the characters that i know and love. this run is an over-flooded toilet in a gas station bathroom.

don't you just love all these loose ends that King left hanging? i really think he had absolutely no clue what to do with Thomas since tossing him in at the end of issue #50. ...and everything's been so muddled and dragged out, that i don't even remember what King's reasonling for Booster Gold's sidekick Skeets being involved with Bane was.

What happened with Psycho Pirate? And yeah, Skeets too. So much was left behind and people will complain and say “but he didn’t get to do the full run he wanted”. Too damn bad, if he was a writer worth a shit he could have wrapped it up in the 16 issues he had from the time he found out he was off until now.

pacing has been something Tom King has never understood. ....that nand how to tell a good story.

Love the detailed review! Even if I think this is a 2.0 at best.

Thanks Canada guy

Luna, you have a good point. Penguin in flashpoint world works for Thomas that's seems to be a big mistake in this story.

I thought so. Don't they have anyone at DC that does fact checks on stories? They seem to miss a lot of stuff anymore. Do you read Nightwing? In the Nightwing annual they said that Dicks parents were shot when they weren't. And how they died has been written about many times over the years so that is a huge mistake to make. They need some serious fact checkers at DC

@Luna I think they actually need some "serious people" in all comic industry.

True or for the ones working in to start to actually give a damn about the characters and not just the over all credit for having gotten one of their stories out

It doesn't really explain how he got there though. How did it still exist? Since when can Reverse Flash go to dead timelines? When Thomas disappeared in the Button it was going out of existence but suddenly he's not and instead of going to talk to his son he decides to destroy his life? This was just more nonsense.

I'm making the same questions as you egon.

What's to explain? When Barry fixed the flashpoint, that reality didn't disappear and just kept on living for some time. And when Thomas charged on the dissolving reality Eobard snatched him in that moment saving him. And then he got fixated on ensuring that his son is "happy" and leaves the Batman behind because it's pain, hurt and all that. This run is full of nonsense and questionable decisions, but this one seemed pretty clear.

I was under the impression that Flashpoint completely disappeared after everything was fixed. That was the whole point.

The whole point was yet another reboot of the universe.

True. I meant that once the timeline was fixed the Flashpoint timeline disappeared. That was the whole point for Thomas. To replace it with the proper timeline where Bruce survived

And he was pretty disappointed here when he realized that the "wrong" timeline wasn't erased.

I got that but there’s no explanation as to why it wasn’t erased

It just wasn't. I don't really need any more explanation than that.

I do. I like for things to make sense.

It's comic books, so the definition of "sense" is very, very wide. The most powerful weapon in the universe doesn't work against yellow, "punching" reality resurrects dead Robins and no one can tell that Clark Kent is Superman. Yeah, the definition of "sense" is very wide.

The rings have worked against yellow for over a decade now but there is always a suspension of disbelief. I still think an explanation is needed for the story. I get it that you don’t but that’s just how we differ I guess.

I know that they work now and I'm glad that you brought up the suspensions of disbelief. The flashpoint timeline wasn't erased because it wasn't. And people don't recognize Clark Kent as Superman with glasses because they don't. I know that we won't see eye to eye on the matter but it's always nice to have a civil conversation with someone on the internet. That stuff is rare. Especially now when people are triggered by everything. Literally everything.

Facts.

Agree. Is sad to think about how good this book should be (because is BATMAN!) and how bad actually is for a real lack of common sense from King.

@Linkush I liked this issue just as you. But the run as a whole is terrible and I don't expect a good end in #85.

Broken man? You mean psychotic mass murderer.

Yeah. Two sides of the same coin

I loved this issue for the same reason even when I know is weird because I think overall King's Run is crap but this issue I think was good stuff.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

anyone giving '10' needs one too!

Ooops I give a 10 to this issue Bring me my helmet but read my review because I explain why I really liked this issue 84 even when I think King's Run is almost absolute crap since around #50.

i just find the entire concept of Thomas doing all this to spite Bruce for not listening to him just laughable!! ... so damned f*****ng idiotic!!

Totally agree. It’s one of the dumbest motivations ever. Thomas also doesnt realize how much of a Psychopath he is, therefore his life as Batman doesnt apply to Bruce. Wish he was just killed off.

yeah. the "motivation" makes absolutely ZERO sense. Tom King probably just threw in ALL the characters in the last page of issue #50 with Bane, just to be shocking. ...he obviously had NO plan why they were there, or what to do with any of them. ESPECIALLY Thomas!! ... the bonehead has just been stalling, while he tried to figure out what to do with them. ...at this point i'd gladly see Thomas get killed off.

Totally agree. Glad Bane isnt dead. King made me hate him, but since I have read Knightfall I think Bane deserves better.

Bane most definitely deserves better. ALL the characters in this run deserved better. ....just one more issue of this hot trash!

Agreed. Glad my favorite characters werent much involved. Yes just 1 more

All the characters deserve better, King is a character shredder, Alfred is dead, all those characters in Heroes in Crisis dead and wally totally ashamed, and I fear next number King ends killing Thomas. What more? Maybe now Bane awakes and decides to start a new life under the name "RANE"...

i've seen fly infested dog poop with more plot than this miserable comic.

At least porn movies end in a climax. This issue just end.

Touche, Quinn, touche.

Yeah, I'm proud of that one. Of course, I've only heard of how porns end.

i stand by my statement that this issue was more akin to fly infested dog poop.

it's just occurred to me, do we even know WHY Alfred was a prisoner of Bane's? or WHY Bruce felt the need to leave Gotham while it was in utter turmoil??

Who'd care about things such as story and logic in a comic written by Tom King at this point? If anything, I'm surprised Alfred didn't have a magical deus ex knife in his pocket like Robin.

true. it's all moot at this point. i still like to bring it up to shed light on just how ridiculous all the 10 score Critic Reviews are.

I don't think most critics read issue to issue, but rather pop in when it's their turn.

I'm sure they read his bank accounts numbers growing when they are "generous" with his reviews.

Detective Chimp - yeah. they're a bunch of sniveling groveling ass kissers.

@myconius I would save Joshua McDonald from Batman News. I think he brings very honest reviews. And what about all that "people" coming just to give a 10 without any explanation just helping to save the people rate from our 1 point reviews? If not for those dubious "people" the ratings would be as low as around 2 points but right now is around 6 points.

hahahaha me to

King and DC are just wasting our time. - AGREED!!! i strongly felt this since Tom King's very first issue. King should have never been given Batman.

I not very enthusiastic about Tynion but right now we just need King to end his terrible run. He said #84 will be full of anger and #85 will make us cry a lot so I expecting the worst in that last issue.

Kind of reminds me how DC has turned Superman into someone who will shed giant tears at the drop of a hat. Whenever they reboot their universese, so about 47 times in the past few years, they want to show how serious it is by having Superman on his knees, face showing super grief with Niagra Falls coming from his eyes. I guess this demonstrates just how serious the latest reboot is. I miss cheeful stoic, mature, smart Superman.

At least we are getting a reaction from Bruce this time, but it’s not enough& thanks to Kings crappy writing we still don’t know anything about Thomas or why he is acting like that. At least Kings story is giving me another reason to hate Thomas. But this is all so stupid& dumb, how could DC allow this?

I’d rather have a Tim Drake with healing powers than a friggin’ Duck with a terrible brown costume. The dialogue really bogs the issue down though, pretentious to a fault.

As to how DC allows this, they’ve let bendis run roughshod through Superman and the Legion of Superheroes, it’s not a surprise.

I should just go back to reading old comics from Pre52. New ones are a mess lately.

DC is letting their *BIG TWO* got to shit!! ..what both Superman and Batman have terrible shit writers, and the units sales continue to drop, DC really deserves everything they've got coming to them. and Dan DiDio wonders why reprints of classics are selling better than their new shitty comics!! ... well Dan, i hate to break it to you, but your new comics SUCK!

I really don’t understand how he’s allowed to continue running DC into the ground.

I don't think it's bad that Bruce cried over Alfred's death.

Absolutely agree, myconius. Let's also not forget about the presumed 5G event/reboot that was teased a while ago. We know almost nothing about it, but there's a chance DC plans its own All New, All Different Marvel reboot, at least that's the general concern. I'd like to see faces of Didio, King and Bendis once that spectacularly implodes, and the house will have to rely exclusively on re-issues of old books to survive.

I mean, of all the things they could choose to ape from Marvel an “initiative” they essentially relaunched around three times, to have none of them stick, is a bizarre choice.

Honestly, as someone who read all of that ANAD Marvel stuff through to the present day, it did have a lasting effect on the franchise. The problem with ANAD Marvel was that all the legacy characters were being introduced at the same time, and if you believe editorial and the creators, wasn't even purposefully done or planned out that way. There were good legacy characters, like Sam Wilson, and bad ones, like Riri Williams.

I can say though that whether the legacy characters worked or not was completely dependent on the creators behind them. The worst legacy characters, Riri Williams and Miles Morales, were both Bendis. And I know Miles came way before ANAD Marvel, but with that initiative he joined the 616 universe and was driven into the ground by Bendis. So, having DC's current talent behind this 5G initiative is worrying.

But those legacy characters have since found their niche at Marvel, where they are able to grow into good characters in their own right, and I can only assume the same will end up happening with the 5G characters.

Dunno, we'll see, I guess. The main problem with legacy characters I see, is how they are meant to fill shoes of already established heroes. Big, with decades worth of legacies, and long lasting relationships. I'd rather see DC try to expand the roster, add new faces and see which ones are well received. Look at 90's cartoons which gave us Harley, Livewire or Renee Montoya. Or modern comic additions, for example one of my personal favouites, Silencer. That's the way to go, instead of...

... bypassing any character development, expecting brand new faces to be instantly equal to ones we know. It's cheap. Lanterns? Fine, they are a corps. Robins? They grow up and are replaced, so no problem. But once we're talking about Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman... yeah, I'm nervous.

They should be setting up those characters now, and it's not clear if they are.

YourGreenMuse - Alfred's death was pointless, and SO very poorly handled. Bruce crying over it becomes parody at this point. especially since he was soaking up the sun on the beach while Alfred's neck was being snapped, like a carrot.

Nihilist - if the 5G rumors are true, then it'll be a shitshow even WORSE than the worst of the new 52. at that point i'll probably stop buying single issues, and just focus on buying the reprints of classics. ...this is what happens when DC puts a mindless edglelord in charge.

Marvel Now!/All-New Marvel/All-New, All-Different did not have the lasting impact you think they did. Sure some storyline were decent, but for the most part they were just seen a relaunches to take advantage of new #1’s to try and raise sales. Various titles were barely able to make it past 7 issues. That aside, while some well-received characters were able to find a place, the majority of ideas they set up ended when the initiative stopped.

So far the “leaked” changes are Luke Fox as Batman, the character has been fairly absent from most titles in his capacity as Batwing; Jon Kent as Superman, not sure what nonsense will happen to force this; Owen Mercer or another son of Cptn Boomerang as Flash, nothing done in this regard; the lantern from Far Sector taking over 2814 duties, kinda hard to justify considering she just debuted and is operating in an area far removed from this one universal location.

Or another supposed change is “teen lantern” as the primary Lantern of 2814. Harder to believe as it’s a 14 year-old, not even a real Corps member, and doesn’t even have a real ring. None of those changes make real sense other than Luke Fox, in a specifically temporary capacity. So all signs point this being an enormous trainwreck.

That part about the majority of ideas Marvel had from Marvel Now! through ANAD being dropped is just not true, RBL.

RBL - the choice of Luke Fox really doesn't make sense when you have characters like Dick Grayson, Tim Drake and Damian Wayne waiting in the wing. even Jason Todd has WAY more emotional investment in the legacy of Batman than Luke Fox. ...plus no one was asking for this. it's not like Bat-Wing comics sold like hotcakes. he's just not an in-demand character.

it's just occured to me, do we even know WHY Alfred was a prisoner of Bane's? or WHY Bruce felt the need to leave Gotham while it was in utter turmoil?

I didn’t say it was a good choice, just that’s the only one that even remotely has some logic to it. Of course he’s not exactly high up in the “line of succession” it’s less a passing of the mantle more like an “ironheart” scenario. Bruce did not leave Gotham, he was dragged out after he was beat up by Thomas Wayne and postponed returning while he recovered.

I don't know, to me it sounds like a marketing choice to generate some buzz for 5 minutes. Controversies sell, and when dealing with race bending, it's pretty obvious anyone who would speak against Luke being the new Batman, would be labeled by media as racist, and DC would be praised for breaking conventions. Kinda like what WB does with DCEU - Black Canary, Gordon and Catwoman being examples. From the marketing perspective, it's a good position for them, since criticism of 5G could be easily..

I mean sure, that will shut down criticism with an easy scapegoat. Just as easily will put off current readers and not exactly incite people to read. Say what you will about the outrage mob but they hardly, if ever, read the material they claim to defend/sponsor.

... dismissed as hateful. From the comic perspective, though, yeah, it'd be a total disaster, possibly even worse than New 52, as myconius said. Knowing what happened to both New 52 and ANAD Marvel, it's safe to assume DC wouldn't appeal to new readers solely because new characters would have particular skin color and/or background, yet they could very easily lose the current, ever shrinking audience. On the other hand, we know practically nothing about 5G, so I'll reserve my cynicism for later.

if the rumors of 5G actually come to pass and all the heroes get replaces with a bunch of D-listers, i'm going to be saving myself a BUNCH of money when i stop buying DC's new single issue comics. ...i won't bother with the trades. won't even give it a second look when it goes on sale at comixology either. i only wish i had the foresight to save myself all the money i'd spent on shitty new 52 comics. Tomasi's Batman&Robin and Morrison's BatmanIncorporated are the only ones that i kept.

You wouldn't be the only one who would quit buying comics. I would most likely keep purchasing some elseworld TPs, like White Knight, but main continuity titles would be dead to me.

I'll be reading it.

This non sense in fact makes a lot of sense is not DC, you know this shit is in all mass media is a global campaign of the New World Order. In movies and comics white hetero males and classic white girls with classic girl attitude are being replaced for gay dudes, empowered feminazis and black or asian indigenous heroes. No offenses intended, I don't have any issues with your skin color, I'm Mexican, mine is a mixed people nation. I'm just telling this is a big, big global massive campaign to empower feminism, to empower gay agenda and to infect young people with one dangerous idea : THE IDEA IS "NATIONAL IDENTITY WORTHS NOTHING ; WE ALL ARE PEOPLE OF A GLOBAL WORLD SO NATIONALITY IS AN STUPID THING OF THE PAST". A very dangerous statement because implies a global government (dictatorship in fact) is not such a bad thing and there is no sense in fight for such thing like "Your Country". That's the real reason for all this" inclusion" in movies, tv series and comics. MARVEL and DIS

MARVEL and DISNEY for example went this path yet and now is turn to DC to show his loyalty with the stablishment. That's all.

Sounds pretty crackpot to me, tbh.

Well, that detective’s bananas.

I got bananas for any occasion, some of you may say this is just conspiracy crap but maybe others can see the whole picture. If you see the movies, series and comics in the last years you will see a lot of characters fulfilling this pattern so if you want you can realize there is huge campaign trying to impose an ideological agenda... or maybe you think Zendaya really looks as MJ Watson and you just choose to believe there is nothing happening in our beautiful world. I can agree to disagree.

And I can say I believe the gears in your head aren’t functioning as they should.

You can do better than this. Insulting me for no think like you only degrades yourself RBL.

Loosen up your tinfoil hat, mate, because everything you said is just nonsensical gibberish. Sound like something taken straight from Info Wars or Daily Wire, lol.

Is it? I'm just saying there is pattern not only seen in those 5G chatter or MARVEL reboots, but in all mass media. So, I don't know if you visit info wars, I don't.

It is, yeah. First of, mainstream media serves its donors, not some imaginary NWO. Fox News is Republican party's propaganda wing, MSNBC/CNN "serve" the Democratic establishment. If anything, NWO is the deregulatory capitalist status quo. Second, replacing characters with token minority ones is nothing more than pandering to different demographics who currently don't buy comics. Companies try to introduce token heroes who would instantly become stars, hence replacements instead of introductions.

They hope a new identity behind a big name will drawn both old readers, and new ones as well, who fel like they're represented in the medium. The problem is the fact they exchange established characters for no name tabula rasas, which generates negativity and controversy. On the other hand, new characters who are X or Y, ar generally accepted, unless they're one dimensional shells who don't have anything to offer but their identity. Third of all, there's nothing wrong with feminism...

... it's regressivisim, which manifests itself in identity politics, what's the problem. I haven't me a single person who would claim they hate feminism and know what it atually stand for. The real deal, not Buzzfeed/Tumblr regresive garbage, that is. Gay agenda? No such bloody thing, so that's pure nonsense.

If anything, companies want to exploit diversity to pander to buyers. That's the issue, because if it was about actual egalitarianism and telling different stories about different characters, publishers wouldn't resort to publicity stunts, and instead, would just focus on storytelling. Next stupid point, cosmopolitanism. It has nothing to do with one gib global government conspiracy theory. I, myself, consider myself a cosmopolitan, taking interest in foreign affairs and problems that affect...

... absolutely everybody, whether it's global warming, rise of nationalism around the planet, or incoming economic crash. Pure chance decided where you were born, there's no shame nor pride in this. On the other hand, there's a lot one nation could learn from another, and improve thanks to that knowledge. What, all of a sudden Saudi Arabia's sexism should be respected because it's a part of its national heritage, that's how it rolls? We don't live in a black/white world, where it's only us and..

... them. Some problems are bigger than separate nations, and surely, due to neoliberalism, countries are economically connected more than ever. Neither of that has anything to do with diverse comic characters. Nothing bad in diversifying rosters of heroes, as long as publishers introduce them, intead of replacing others thinking the name alone will sell. But why am I even wasting my time trying to debunk this conspiracy gibberish? Sigh, I should do something productive instead.

There is no commercial sense in changing well stablished heroes (some of them around and selling a lot of comics since 1940's) for new versions without a proper background. Just a few examples ¿Why to change your old well stablished Thor for Jane, not only in the comics even in the movies, is there any urgent need for a female lesbian Thor? ¿Why Tony Stark for Rori? ¿Why Bruce for Luke? ¿Why you print a comic just to show Mr Fantastic being humiliated in a battle of intellect for a black little girl? ¿Why to replace MJ for Zendaya or the little mermaid for a black girl, or to change the boy in Detective Pikachu? Why all the women in the new movies of Star Wars are so smart and able and all the males (except the black heroe) are so stupid? What's the need for a Feminazi Robot in the Han Solo spin off or those new female Ghostbusters? And so on... This are only few examples of a pattern. You don't need to go to infowars to see that, you only need to see because is all around in the

In the mass media. And yet feminism is a problem when you start showing the males as stupids, when you go into a divorce knowing the laws are unbalanced against you for being a man, when you don't get a job even being very well qualified because there is a beautiful woman in the list or when you are a baby and your right to live worth nothing for the law against the "right to decide (to kill the baby) of the mother"... But I don't expect you to understand. That's why I said before I can agree to disagree. I speaked my opinion. I'm not asking for your permission. You can agree or disagree. I don't care.

Man, Nihilist put way more effort into this than anyone else would. Congrats on that, buddy. But as Nihilist explained, the point of diversification is to reach new audiences and hopefully pull in new readers. As for your specific examples, 1) Thor's arc at the time, and really the thesis of Jason Aaron's run, is all about worthy vs unworthy. Jane picking up the hammer was how the writer wanted to showcase that. And she's not gay. They're doing it in the movies because it proved successful...

And because legacy heroes are a must in the movies, if they have any hope of longevity. Actors want to move on/get old. 2) Riri replaced Tony because the writer Bendis loves residuals. 3) We don't even know that that's confirmed yet nor do we know the specifics behind it. 4) Because Moon Girl was a children's comic. 5) In movie adaptations, things are changed for a multitude of reasons. MJ wasn't replaced, she was just different in this version of Spider-Man. Same for the others...

6) Bad writing. 7) More bad writing. Feminism in the form that most believe in calls for equality across every gender and sex. The laws should be changed to be more equal, sure. The hiring practices of a company varies widely, you can't just assume a woman will always get the job over a man. But if that discrimination is happening, it's wrong...

I actually see abortion as a necessary evil in a world wrought with overpopulation and too many unqualified parents, when the government foster and adoption systems are as broken as they are. Everyone is so concerned with the child being born that no one thinks about what that child's life will be like. People should not be forced into parenthood.

YourGreenMuse you perfectly said this a far more calm and collected manner than I ever could. Well done!

@YourGreenMouse You and I think just way too different but even so I want to thank you because you were here the first expressing your thoughts with respect and no trying to shut me up with agresion just because we don't think the same way. For that I recognize you.

@YourGreenMouse I can never agree with your thinking about abortion. I will go all the way for the right to live but I think this is not the place to discuss such a strong matter. In the otters points I can appreciate your thoughts even holding my own opinion. Thank you. @RBL and @Nihilist For me this argument ends here because in fact there is no need for a discussion. I just stated my own personal opinion about the replacement of comics and media characters for another versions. Is my opinion and I just expect the same respect from other members as they expect respect for their own opinions. Thank you.

hahahaha! wow! this is WAY too much to read right now. reminds me of when i was reading all the dialogue boxes from Scott Snyder's Batman. i'll have to get back to all of this later.

Hahaha! or you can read poetry in the dialog boxes from Tom King's Batman Hahaha I really loved the one quoted in "The Tyrant Wing". XD

I remember, it was THE PHOENIX AND THE TURTLE, from Shakespeare if I remember well.

@myconius this beach scene was one of the dumbest in Comic Book history. I hate Bruce for relaxing& making weird fitness poses with Selina while Alfred was brutally murdered. He doesnt get any sympathy from me. I thankfully can borrow Comics from a friend. I only buy the ones I really like, but since they are all trash lately DC saves me a lot of money.

how and why is Flashpoint Batman ever there in the first place???

We agree. I said much the same in my review. I purposely don't read other reviews before I write mine, so it's very satisfying to see others who see the same issues I do. It makes me feel less like someone yelling at kids for playing on his lawn. Keep up the good work.

Seeing last page, de will probably have the answer in the next issue

Will we though? We're often left with cliff hangers that have no resolution on the next issue. Hell, last issue Bruce and Bane were shot and Selina looked like her neck or back was broken and yet there is zero reference to either in this issue.

Gotham Girl marries Duke? What the absolute F. I mean, it was a chore to read through but I’d say it was touching despite Tom King. The man cannot get over his need to be overly pretentious. I agree that the impact of Alfred’s death would have been larger had this issue been sooner. That said, at least it’s only 2 more issues before King is out.

Yes, at the end of I Am Gotham, there was narration from an older Gotham Girl that set up that she would kill Batman and marry Duke.

Yo, that’s nonsense

I remember this. Maybe the twist will be, she kills Thomas? I lost any interest in following this series, I just don't care if some arcs end up unresolved.

Yeah, that's my theory.

I mean that would be anti-climatic to the nth degree, considering the “big fight” with bane was cut-off and they’ve been building up the upcoming confrontation for quite some time now.

plot twist. ...Bruce will wakes up to discover this was all just a bad dream, brought on by food poisoning from a night of binge eating spoiled clams. ...he also discovers that he's soiled himself. the smell is so wretched that be begins profusely projectile vomiting. ...the end.

I doubt Gotham Girl will Kill any of the 2 BATMEN, because the solicitation of 85 hints at Thomas going back to his flashpoint dimension and Bruce still have the Bat-Cat series (¿before the rumored black Batman?). So I think that foretelling won't become reality.

The solicitations are notoriously unreliable.

You have a point... What I'm trying to tell is I don't trust too much in King when he promises something in the long run for an history. In early issues of THE VISION he inserts an statement about VIV foretelling she will be living a short live and then when the book ends VIV is the only one alive at the side of his Father and later VIV was in the AVENGERS story (I don't know her current status, I'm not very much onto MARVEL). So Is just a hope... I'm yet very pissed with the deads of Alfred and Bane and I just hope Gotham Girl not to fulfill his stupid foretold, that would be extremely annoying. By the way, that comic THE VISION was just amazing. I wonder where the talented King has gone. He is no more such a good writer. I think the guy is passing for a very dark time in his life that's maybe the explanation for such a bad performance this year in Batman.

Viv did go on to die and be revived in an Avengers/Champions crossover, but that was Mark Waid. I honestly don't recall that moment in Vision. I really enjoyed that series when it was coming out, but I'm afraid to go back as I think the cracks I now see in his writing now will negatively affect my opinion of Vision.

Tom King is not going through a dark time in his life. How he wrote a story for a different company doesn’t affect how he tells another, any writer worth their salt plots each separately.

See, My point is... How in the world is he doing such a poor poor work? When someone is performing very low in his job you think maybe there is something affecting him. I know some readers love Grant Morrison, I really hate his style of writing but is his style, anyone knows how he writes, the thing is I'm really hating this King Run just as much as the Morrison's run and is very weird because I think King can perform much more better than this crap he is doing recently in Batman and Heroes in crisis (even when HIC was clearly manipulated for DC direction).

I don’t think HiC was changed from what Tom King wanted. What I would say is he believe his work was deeper and more clever than it actually was and with DC having essentially no editorial control over him and others to question some decisions, it led to the dumpster fire we got. Even good writers can write terrible stories if it’s a genre or character they are ill-suited for or if they get lost in their own ideas to see what they are making is a mess.

I don't think Tom King plots any of his stories out. From issue to issue, i think he just makes shit up as he goes. Events get forgotten about, questions get left unanswered. It's like he has some serious ADHD or something. Much of his writing, he tries so hard to be impactful with cheap shock moments. He relies on it too much, and it not only looses it's impact but comes off as a parody.

I don’t think Tom King is going through a dark time, I think that’s just his personality. Everyone of his stories is pretty much the same. Death, depression, and making the hero into a piece of shit. He may not be going through a dark time but he needs therapy for sure. He’s insecure and it constantly comes out in his writing and on social media and it’s extremely annoying. Vision was just as bad, the only difference was that he was no where near as popular as Batman so people ignored how he...

Ruined the character and made him into just another piece of shit who did creepy and shady stuff and kept secrets. He’s a one trick pony and that one trick is being a shitty writer.

Talon1load - i really hate to throw out such an extremely overused cliché term, but you sir just WON the internet!!!

If King can win an Eisner for his shitty writing, I should be able to win the internet for mine. Lol

True, true.

I wouldnt have a problem with a darker& more depressed version of Gotham, but I have a problem with the countless plotholes& with the awful dialogue in Kings run. It’s just so stupid to read. King also cant deal with criticism, he only wants praises & doesnt even care what fans don’t like about his run.