He talked about it on Twitter... it’s a direct quote from pa Kent in the first Superman movie serial and the inspiration for the film based concept

Truth, justice and intolerance that is... tying into World War Two and the fight against the nazis

I got it, it's just that Superman's catchphrase is "Truth, Justice and the American Way", not "Truth, Tolerance and Justice" regardless of Yang's motives. And I'm really, really tired of this attitude in comics like loving America is a sin.

again, it's from the movie serials, not from Yang. It was Superman's catchphrase before the Truth, Justice and the American Way became popular because of the tv show in the 50s. The story takes place in a world that is more of the 40s, so he used the original slogan to match up.

Wasn't "Truth, Justice and the American Way" from the comics BEFORE the movie serials? I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's the case. Either way, I still don't buy the explanation and I think he did it on purpose to avoid using the usual catchphrase.

https://screenrant.com/superman-truth-justice-american-way-origin/ This is what I found with a pretty lazy google search, I don't see anything about the "tolerance" phrase.

https://screenrant.com/superman-american-way-new-slogan-tolerance-dc-comics/ And apparently the same guys caught up on it and are interpreting this in the same way I did, as a renunciation of the "American way". Like I said, it's not very subtle.

So to sum it up, the original slogan WAS "Truth, Justice and the American way" from the radio show, not the tolerance bit and Yang dropped it on purpose. Not that tolerance is not a good thing, it's just pretty obvious what Yang tried to accomplish there and as you can see, I'm not the only one who caught the subtext.

And reading that whole thread, with Yang saying that American soldiers "faced a manifestation of America's deepest sins" fighting the nazis because allegedly Hitler was inspired by some American writer.... yeah, that doesn't help his case very much. If anything, it kind of scares me, to be honest.

SEEEEETHING

The American Way was never first and dropped for years at one point. Since you say you did a lazy search, here is something for you https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-276/3/. Plus, in the comics over the past decade, the phrase has been dropped numerous times and Superman even addressed it himself. You seem caught up in something pushing tolerance, which is odd anyway.

The fact you looked up something on screen rant shows you did some pretty lazy research... they get 90% of everything wrong

AND if you know any history, Hiltler called the The Passing of the Great Race his bible. It was written by Madison Grant, an American and was a popular book in the US

Btw, i listen to the old radio show and through most of it's run, they call him "the champion of the oppressed" or battling injustice. Here is an actual show from 1941... https://youtu.be/cKYn-yfZA4A

I am caught up in the fact that more and more comics seem to reject American exceptionalism like it's a disease. Yes, I do have a problem with that. Yang's no exception in that matter. I did say it was a lazy search and I just googled it, I didn't search it on screenrant, those were just the first results to appear. No matter how much you try to defend it, ask ten people on the street which is Superman's catchphrase I guarantee you 9 of 10 will know about "Truth, Justice and the American Way".

If you do know any history, you know Hitler was pretty cuckoo crazy and I wouldn't put my money on anything he did. I'm pretty sure his hate towards the Jews and the other people he exterminated had very little with an American writer and very much with the reality of Germany in the 30s. So yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not buying Yang's twisted parallel between USA and Nazi Germany and I honestly think you need to seriously despise this country to make that sort of compariosn.

*on anything he said. And even if he was "inspired" by that book, what's America's fault in that? One lunatic wrote silly race theories (btw those are really making a comeback these days but that doesn't seem to scare anyone, I'm sure we'll be just fine in the future lol), another lunatic allegedely read it and got inspired, wrote his own lunacies and then got to do what his sick mind thought was necessary for his country. Again, where's America's fault in that?

And again, this has to do with a phrase in a Superman book, how? A phrase that itself was pretty much propaganda. Also, it’s fine to love the US, but don’t forget the Japanese-American interment camps, the awful racism at that time that still goes on and the fact that there were still people alive who were slaves in America!

Also, because he doesn’t say American way, doesn’t mean he hates America! In my part of the United States, people don’t look at “tolerance” as a bad thing. In fact, that’s more of a universal thing that would benefit everyone If we all followed it.

Not to mention Comic Books being more worldwide now and Superman being a freaking Alien! You think that if Superman were an actual person, he would have a problem with this? If you do, you don’t know the character and are a fool!

You are just reaching to find some justification to hate this.

I gave it a 9 and I don't rate with 9 a lot of books, HOW AM I HATING THIS??? Oh no, the awful racism, gtfo, look at what China is doing and the whole world just shuts up and obeys those monsters, in that context I have no shame loving America. America's the country that fought and still fights fascism and communism while Europe was swallowed up by two sick ideologies. Stop with this moronic self-hate that only hurts this country.

Hating on the "tolerence" part! And don't give me "look at" (insert other awful thing). Awful is awful, there aren't better levels! The tolenrence line is 100% from the movie serial that the superman part is based off of. Nobody is going to hate America because of this comic or because Superman doesn't say American Way!!!!!!!

btw, not many people read comics overall to make this a "thing"

I think I've made my message clear over several comments, if you can't get that, it's not on me and I can't see what I can do more to make you understand. You clearly either don't get the context or you're just so stubborn you would rather stick your head in the sand. Either way, not my problem. It's a "thing" in the comic industry.

You need to stop watching Ethan Van Sciver videos. That guy is a proud pedophile supporter.

I hope that tolerance and acceptance is something in the comics industry! I think I’d love comics even more than I do now! Comics are for everyone. Superman is for everyone.

I thought you meant the "thing" was the anti-American sentiment. You need to make yourself clear because your efforts of trying to paint me as intolerant are not very sincere, I have to say.

Why are you such a snowflake, Merlyn? The origins of the phrasing is verified. Hitler was inspired by an American book. Nazism was a popular movement in America before World War II, btw. And we see its hallmarks in one side of American politics today and it's deeply concerning, but that's irrelevant to the conversation. Tolerance is undeniably a good thing, unless you're intolerant. This isn't anti-american. In fact, America should embrace tolerance. It's the cultural melting pot after all.

Why are you such a whimp who always defends attacking America, Psycamorean?

I don't think any of this was about attacking America, you're just a snowflake.

Isn't "snowflake" a term that annoys leftists like you? :)) Kinda hypocritical of you to use it. Kinda late to the party this week with the reviews, I'm curious, why is that?

Snowflake doesn't annoy me at all, hence why I used it. As for why I'm so late, I've been having a long few weeks, and I still am. Real life comes before comics, you know?

Yeah sure, you're always one of the first people who gives reviews here but totally coincidental these last two weeks you stayed away. I think we both know what's the real reason but don't worry, I'm not judging you. I just remember you raising that specific point a few weeks ago and now it's so obvious what a hypocrite you are.

I genuinely don't know what you're talking about?

Is this just a way to wriggle out of proving yourself to be a snowflake that just reacts when you get triggered?

No, no, you know what I'm talking about. That's more than enough for me.

More power to you, I guess? Thanks for completely shifting the conversation into some nonsense, like you do every time.

I mean, I'm not having a "conversation" about this topic with someone who sees nazis to his left and right today in America. But at least now you know I know what a hypocritical douchebag you are.

Again, I really don't know what you're on about, but I guess it's always hard to know what's going on in the head of a braindead, anyway.

I'm fine with you playing stupid but knowing what I'm talking about, that's good enough for me. :))

I really don't though lol. I guess come to that discord server I made specifically for you, and we can discuss it more idk. Open invitation for ya.

I remember him renouncing his American citizenship. AC #900 to be specific.

Might be because Superman realized that the world is more important that archaic 'American Ideals' and only put themselves first and even then, only the rich and powerful ones.

I feel like this complaining about it is such a bold acknowledgment of America's faults. I mean, he's tacitly saying America doesn't stand for tolerance, which should make any American feel shame. It's a good virtue to have.

Could you both please make up somewhere else?

No comment on the fact that Superman no longer sees himself as an American so the notion that he has reason to say 'American Way' doesn't exist anymore there @Merlyn? Did you just miss that part?

Nah, evidence doesn't matter when outrage is your only mode of thought.

Superman sees himself as an American, only crazy people like you and that writer you cling onto want him not to see himself as an American. Now please, go away.

Canonically, he doesn't though.

He's also an illegal alien. Something Righties seem to hate. That fact never pop up? He's American because he looks white?

He's American because he was raised in America by Americans, moron. Please go away, shoo, I don't need your stupidity and your hate here!

Wait, so can immigrants be naturalized?

I'm not from America but I was raised by American parents. He didn't have documentation. The Kents had to lie to the government. There is no hate you are just ignoring the facts to fit your warped view of Superman. He was NEVER truly American and even when he was a citizen he gave it up to be a hero of the world.

K bye

What a simp lol

Yeah, I'm tired of loonies, so long as they go away, you can name me however you want. You can go away too, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. :))

You gotta do a lot of mental gymnastics in the face of fact and logic to deny it.

K bye.

You going to at least acknowledge any of those facts or are you just going to continue calling authors out for not writing the American Superman that hasn't existed for years? Oddly enough every time there is a more hard, Right leaning Superman, the AMERICAN Superman, he ends up being a dictator that murders his friends.

Ginnkgo has left this conversation. I did give him a fair warning, I don't have to treat mental illness without getting payed and there was no payment for it so...

Nothing he said is indicative of mental illness. Quit using terms you don't understand.

He was projecting a lot of his own problems on me and I didn't have to indulge him on it.

I'm sure anyone else on this site would look at this conversation and come away with a different interpretation than you have.

Cool. They can speak up here and, maybe, just maybe, not insist with several comments after I tell them that I've had enough of their lunacy.

Don't worry, I'll unblock him soon enough. I just needed a break because it was too much.

Sounds like a snowflake position.

You're just mad he called you out for not understanding Superman. You seem like the lunatic. Block someone because you don't like what they say even when they are right then cry about how they harassed you. Also, you didn't give any sort of warning. You said, 'k bye' like a sad 10 year old. Grow up and live in the real world where Superman is actually a progressive thinker.

I'll block you two if that's the attitude you come with.

*too

Go write a Superman story where he is the real true American you want him to be. Full of all the old tropes, like the damsel in distress and the overly evil corporate villain. See how well it does. I'll read it. Chances are, it'll be an example of a time gone by because that's not the way the world, or comics exist now. I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks! You did notice the rating before ranting like a lunatic, right?

Making comics is actually a lot of fun, so I think you should make a fan Superman comic.

I did. I never said you hated comics. Never said you hated Superman. Just mentioned that you got offended that you got called out for being narrowminded, behind the times and willing to ignore hard evidence when someone schools you on Superman history that contradicts your view. Have a great day my dude!

You did a little more than that, you said I don't understand Supes and that I'm a lunatic. Let's not backtrack on anything we say, I have a pretty thick skin. No one "schooled" me on anything, the guy I talked to initially actually came with wrong info, I confronted him, he tries to go beyond the subject and that was it. And the guy I blocked went full retard with how the Right leaning Superman is a tyrant. Well, John Byrne was pretty right wing and I don't remember his Superman going nuts.

Have a great day too!

All of what you just said was incorrect (save for the John Byrne part) and you reworded everything to fit your narrative again. And you did get schooled, you just didn't pay attention. Your thick skin comment is completely undercut by your childish responses and ignorant rhetoric. I implied you were a lunatic. You called him out, I just threw it back at you. He came at you with factual information. You looked at the information, said, 'fake news' and threw a tantrum.

No, it wasn't incorrect, that's just your mind shaping the conversation how you want. I didn't get schooled, if anything I actually corrected the wrong info. He didn't come with any factual information other than the fact that he hates America with all his heart which is obvious to anyone that has eyes. So no, overall you're wrong.

And yes, almost every time there is a right leaning Superman he ends up a dictator. Red Son, Injustice, Earth-2, Justice Lords, various others. They all took hard stances on controlling the populous. All he did was present facts. Here are some more.

Also the fact that you just followed Psycamorean and managed to like on the Teen Titans Academy review a post of someone who calls me a simp makes me wonder how genuine you are in your attempt at having a conversation and if you're not just a troll account made right now.

Well, what do you know, you did just make your account right now, interesting.

How did you correct the wrong info? You only just presented the John Byrne bit.

And? Isn't this place for anyone at any time? I only just found out about the site from an article and this was the first thing I saw. If this is any indication of the level of integrity in terms of consumer reviews then that is unfortunate.

Run, and fast. This website is toxic as hell lol.

Gee, I don't know, if someone would deliberately made an account just now, attack you repeatedly and then liking comments that attack you, I'm sure you would see nothing wrong with it, right?

That's really unfortunate. I guess I will just have to be liberal with the block button. Oh no I said liberal!

Yeah, how dare I not like the fact that a writer throws shade at America while being fortunate enough to live in a free country and say, not China.

At least you're a Red Hood fan, you got something right among all the wrong ones. :))

Americans can dislike America. Chinese people can not like China. In fact, many of them do but they live in fear and oppression. Yang has remarked many times on how grateful he is especially being Korean-Chinese-American. It's American to speak out against injustice. It's un-American to let injustice thrive. Unfortunately, America has become a breeding ground for inequality and injustice. Both are measures Superman, American or not strives to fix. If America was perfect it wouldn't need Superman

Honestly, Hex, if you could contribute meaningful conversation to this site, that'd be appreciated.

News flash: Superman doesn't exist. Not in real life. It would be great for him to exist but he doesn't. Stop mixing up real life and fiction, there's a medical term for that.

Psycamorean, just so you know, your new best-buddy blocked me. I'm curious, are you going to lecture him the way you lectured me when I blocked the other nice fellow? Or would you rather remain the same old hypocrite?

Not really, since I understand why someone would block you. Plus he's right. I think it's very American to speak out against injustice.

While I do apologize for devolving this whole thing into nothing, I felt like a point needed to be made that rhetoric like that was just wrong. I will continue on here with more tact and only contribute for the sake of comics.

Cool, same old hypocrite it is then.

I think it's fine to block people for good reason, and I can criticize it when it's not for good reason.

It is very American to speak out against injustice. It's not very American to hate the country that you grew up in even though that seems to be the trend these days for lefties.

I actually think that it's very patriotic to criticize your country. I mean, we value free speech, right? Everyone has the right to say what they want.

Sure but when someone's main occupation is to constantly criticize the country you know it's not in good faith and it's because they've been brainwashed by ideology. Now since I just learned this trick with the deleting of the review so the comments disappear I'm gonna do it again because I really don't want to have all of these comments on my post, it's really tiring. I'll also unblock that nice crazy fellow, maybe he'll be more chill.

That's kinda like censorship

Neah, it's kinda like 100 comments is A LOT! I remember you blocking me (that's not what I'm doing btw) at 20 comments just because you didn't like what I was saying. Now there's that old hypocrisy coming back in full force. :))

Okay, last thing I will say. Copy/paste exists and I really do hope you write that comic. Not in a patronizing way. Put the passion you feel in the words you write into the character you care about. I plan on it too. This conversation has given me a few ideas of stories I would like to write and pitch and it would be good to have strong competition. Good luck Merlyn.

Could you please stop writing a message and then block me again? It's really annoying. At least leave behind this false appearance of well-meaning. If there's anything I truly hate it's people acting nice and then proceeding to be douchebags.

I never liked "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" for Superman's character. If anyone should care so little about being patriotic, it should be the alien that literally flies across the world to save a life when he hears someone in danger. He really cares about all of humanity, regardless of border, and I think he would be thinking specifically of the ideals Ma and Pa Kent taught him, not the soil he landed on. With that said I have nothing against whichever way he says it.

Especially in the times that story reflects. The good ol' days. When P.C. wasn't around to be forced on us.

And what hurts you more, that the message is to support the comics or that it consumes Red Hood?

Personally, I have issues with Tamaki’s writing on superhero books. I didn’t mind future state dark detective, but overall, there was not much of a story and that’s Tamkaki’s fault overall. She is better with non hero stuff where she can take her time and write more realistic, little moments. I did not like her X-23 or Wonder Woman books so I am going onto this one with cautious hope. I like to give every issue a chance, but I am worried.

Dan Mora’s art is always good enough to buy a book as well!

@fearUhavemeisenough Comics are my life and Red Hood is my favorite member of the Batfamily. I got a tattoo of his emblem. I have nothing against supporting comics. He was going out of his way to say he DIDN'T support comics because he couldn't be bothered to buy the issue. What I had a problem with is his unnecessary inclusion of how much money he spent on them when it has NOTHING to do with the review or even the subject of this comic. If it was a Red Hood comic, it might have been relevant.

I smell like a xenophobic here.

Where does xenophobia even remotely fit in here?

@Ginnkgo apparently anyone who dares disagree "smells like a xenophobic."

I thought he was calling himself out!

@Weird Science Jim If he was he wouldn't be wrong.

lol

How is that misogynistic?

How is taking women’s suffering for granted not misogynistic? Tynion just blatantly ignored there were two female victims of Alan’s cowardice.

Alan literally says he loved them with all his mind, and he was hiding how he felt about men from even himself back then. This is something that happened to many gay men, especially one or two generations ago. But go off with you whiny BS I guess

@Bitchwitcher.I agree with you.This guy or girl only wants to whine for the sake of whining.

Imagine if men complain about female video characters killing more men than women in video games.LOL

FYI: Gay people cannot be sexually attracted to women. What he said is a plain lie to excuse himself. Did he tell his wives he is a gay? Did he tell the truth when he impregnated his wife? Of course it happened that a gay man used another innocent woman to avoid the pressure of the society, sacrificing a poor woman‘a life for his own sake and it’s a shame it still happens and many misogynists just like you consider it’s not a big deal. How proud you are to be one.

I’m talking about there are a group of women who are cheated by their gay husband in real life. They have to face with their husbands who don’t love them and are more likely to be infected with sexual transmitted diseases. This book understated women’s role in marriages like this. And you think it’s a joke like video games. See, that’s just what a misogynist do.

excuse me, but this kind of deception is aberrant and if there is misogyne, a man who does that to a woman is because he hates his gender, I have a friend who was in that situation, just because the unfortunate wanted to have a child.

That act is not only not of a superhero, it is not of a person with a little empathy, it is selfish.

You know alan scott has been gay in this continuity for over 10 years? This is the opening and combining of timelines so things like this end up happening. Infinite frontier is about what happens when ypu open up the entire timeline and a characters past all gets melded into one. The alan scott part is there to show how hypertime makes it work.

Its not alan acting any way! It's the timeline making it work

@MaudBenjamin if we want to blame this bizarre game of Who Wants To Be A Bigot then I could accuse you of homophobia by ignoring the societal pressure for men to marry women and have kids and to never ever do something so insane as to be gay. But I'm not gonna do that because you're clearly just a whiny troll with nothing better to do on a tuesday. Have fun sweetie

Gay men have had entire families with women. Love isn't just sexual attraction. This sort of thing was a lot more common than you'd think. No one was being used. Gay men go through denial and repress themselves because society and culture tells them it's wrong to be gay. This doesn't happen as much anymore because luckily, society has progressed when it comes to its treatment of LGBT people. Of course, your responses reveal your blatant homophobia, so I doubt you actually give a shit about women

@Psycamorean Which part don’t you understand about Alan had two children with his wife? And I’ve said it, transferring the pressure from the society to another woman is selfish. Just because he feels bad doesn’t mean he has the right to deceive another people.

I know this is a continuity issue but I’m just mad how ill-considered it was done.

It's people like you that make individuals like Alan stay in the closet for so long living a lie. Grow up, accept that the world changes, and understand that life isn't always as simple as a comic book.

Oh did I forced gays to cheat their wives?

Nothing in the comic suggests he even cheated on his wives! And you know, people don't consciously decide, "I'm going to let society crush me today!" He never deceived anyone except himself! He loved those women, but denied himself. Which is a very common thing among gay people, and as I said, no one decides to do that, it just happens because people are complex social animals that are influenced by a multitude of things, both internally and externally! There's no morality debate here!

Repeating "a gay" over and over again really diminishes any real point you were trying to make.

Gay men aften cheat on their wives. How do you think he figured out he was gay? LOL

Just like straight people don't know they're straight until they've had sex, right?

Are you serious with that last part? " Straight people don't know they're straight until they've had sex"? Lol. Like that happened, EVER. :))

My point was that straight people don't have to have sex to realize that they are attracted to the opposite gender, and the same is true of gay people and their attraction to same gender. Maelstron thinks that gay people must have sex to figure out that they are gay. Maelstron is wrong. Maybe that clears it up for you.

Maybe you just never read it that way. They don't have to blatantly say it for it to still be true. That's exactly why it's so hard for people to come out and feel comfortable. Just because you see him in a certain way doesn't mean that's who he actually is.

Excellent summation of the corner DC has put itself in. DCs greatest strength was always the quality of its writing. Right now Marvel wiping the floor with DC writing wise. I'm a Batman fan and honestly I've seen the standard drop dramatically since court of owls.

Say what you want about Morrison but hes having a ball with Hal Jordan's GL.

5G was a terrible idea and Future State was the lite version of it. FS was poorly received and it makes sense that it's too late to ignore it with titles so early out of the gate. But I'm fearing DC is not hearing the readers.

Death Metal went far too long and ended up a bloated mess. Building on a bloated mess is not good editorial decisions. I get it Snyder gave DC everything counts now but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

So as I understand it the alternate Alan Scott is now the only Alan Scott and his original relationships as canon Alan Scott are now beards? Right?

bloated? Take a look at King in Black!!!

the idea of saying that DC is worse than Marvel because of Death Metal and Future State was the same thing that DC fans said about All New All Different! Both have their issues and just wait, DC fans will be throwing shade at Heroes Reborn when that starts!

and @mingthemerciless it's the timeline opening up and making all the continuities one single one. I find this way a way better explanation than Iceman's

It goes back further than death metal. Snyder burned out on batman after court of owls and what did DC do? They gave him the batverse to oversee. Then Kungs run crashed with rooftops. I know many say it was issue 50 but fir me ge lost me with rooftops.

The difference with king in black is that it's written much better and easier to digest than death metal. DM went way too long and had too many tires ins. I got utterly sick of batman who laughs. Had Snyder stuck with Grim Knight or BWL and kept it Gothamcentric it may have worked better. But Snyder has to lay the table for the aborted 5G which then became Future State which leads us to this mess now.

For a start DC needs to dump Snyder Tynion and Bendis. Get more focused on flagship centric ideas for Batman Detective Supes Actionand Justice League. Bring Wonder Woman back from Snyders silly idea of her. Start thinking stories not constant reboots and bix checking.

I agree Narvel may be stepping on the same rake with heroes reborn V2

Lol, someone like you, whose overall comic rating sits at 1.5/10 and who uses ad hominem attacks against writers in 2/3 of the reviews is the last person to call anybody an ideologue.

RACIST

Said someone who just yesterday reviewed a comic saying "Of course the BLack screenwriter can ONLY write about black characters", of course giving it 1/10. Begone, you loser snowflake.

This is why Trump lost.

"RACIST" Good to know you are self aware.

How do we get reviewed like this out of this forum?

Sadly I don't think there's a way to do so without setting a precedent for further deplatforming. Open ad hominem reviews probably could be taken down as we speak for obvious reasons, but the rest of this gibberish... CBRU'd be one step from entering a slippery slope where anything vaguely deemed trolling or offensive/shocking could possibly be removed as well. Besides these comicsgate clowns could always return and spam 1/10 ratings with no reviews attached.

I definitely get where you’re coming from, it’s just disappointing because I look at these reviews to see if I should pick up books that I may have been on the fence about and members like this exceptionally skew the results.

Yeah, I know, that's unfortunate. Guess the best we can do is to approach comics open minded, ignoring what others may think, and posting our own experiences to counter this clown flood.

Lol the whole point of the killing joke was that Joker was an unreliable narrator. The whole multiple choice and it takes one bad day doesn’t change here. The comic if anything reassures his origin. But you clearly didn’t understand the killing joke.

@VicSav Lol how about you go read Killing Joke again instead of defending this shitty comic on every single person's review who didn't give it a positive rating.

^ didn't want to be mean to him when he was name calling and being super snobby under my review. But all he seems to do is treat this comic like the second coming of christ, despite the fact that it's almost like people have different opinions

But you stated something wrong, you said he wasn't an asshole before the one bad day in killing joke, but the comic explicitly said to not to trust joker as a narrator, hence the multiple choice. So he was never meant to be telling the whole truth, they even explored it in The dark knight movie, the Joker movie, cuz it came from killing joke the idea of unreliable narration by Joker. You can dislike the comic but saying something wrong isn’t gonna help form an objective opinion.

He never claimed that he wasn't an asshole. Clearly that's established here as a retcon. What he said was that idea invalidates the entirety of Killing Joke, which it clearly does. It ruins the one bad day idea that Moore introduced in that book. It's basically saying that the Joker was always sinister and evil, when the whole point of Killing Joke is that anyone can turn into the Joker, all it takes is one bad day.

Also it ruins the multiple choice origin for the Joker by basically confirming that yes he was married to someone and was going to have a child. Mystery solved I guess. The Joker has no mystery behind him anymore. That's a good thing I guess? In my opinion, having the Joker have an unconfirmed origin was one of the best things about him

Nah, he wasn’t evil before that, he had signs of it, he wasn’t having a healthy relationship so he lied about it and that one bad day completely transformed him to it, made him go all out and embrace who he is. Three jokers said he was kind of abusive to them and they didn’t want to be part of that family. It doesn’t say he was evil or an asshole, it was just that he wasn’t true to what happened. They just wanted to dump him.

Jokers "one bad day" was ALWAYS BS and hes been proven wrong on it many mant times including in TKJ. He tried to do the same thing to Gordon and it DIDNT WORK. Joker was never an innocent victim, he made bad decisions and did bad things long before that vat of acid.

They are teasing a more sadistic Joker, the whole three jokers was to play mind games with Batman, and help build his legacy but the comedian has now healed Batman through Chill and so now wants to be the only pain and the deepest pain he can feel. I love the the idea that joker hates not being the main source of Batman deepest pain, so much so that he helps Batman find closure, and heal that wound. This is next level sadism by Joker and that’s a genius/clever idea. Builds up for the future.

Also I don’t get how does he make sense to compare Hickman run on Xmen to this 😂. That’s like comparing GL run with this self contained story.

The Joker was already sadistic to begin with, we didn't need another story to show how sadistic he is. And I'd say that the Joker has done much more to harm Batman in other stories than in this story. Batman as a character hasn't even changed from beginning to end of this story. No character even goes through any changes in this story, which is why it's so unremarkable. Also the comparison was using Hickman's Avengers, and it was a metaphor that might have gone over your head.

I used it to say that there are ways to tell an interesting story and then put the toys back in the playbox which is what this 3 jokers book was. Nothing changed in Batman mythos from before the book than after the book ended. You can change up story telling conventions and tell an interesting story, but for me this story was just basic Batman and Joker duality story. Wow, we haven't gotten that before in any story right?

How does the fact Joker wife and son still alive not change the mythos or future of Batman? How does him healing and forgiving Joe Chill in his last moments (which gave him full closure) and putting it behind his back not adding anything. Also the fact Jason is thinking about healing and moving on from Red Hood is something different. Also didn’t he finally kill joker?Isn’t that adding to the mythos? Also wanting to heal with someone but lacks the strength to heal independently is strong writing

But this next level sadism adds to the joker lore. Also what makes joker so sadistic are these moment in comics, spitting the word sadistic around is more than just a word, you have to earn it and this joker earned his sadism by healing Batman (which adds to the mythos of who actually healed him). Wanting to be his biggest and deepest pain.That’s 100% Joker and that’s how he should be written giving reasons why he’s the baddest and alpha evil, saying a guy is sadistic isn’t enough.

Oh the fact this Joe Chill actually has a reason why he killed Batman parents is adding to the lore. Originally it was thought that it was a random guy that thought it was cool to kill two parents which makes no sense whatsoever, it was so random obviously he had a good reason to kill and let the kid live. It has to add up, and this book offers that. It’s an interesting new take, it’s a realistic take. You can hate it but saying this comic added nothing to the lore is bs.

Joker's wife and son being alive will not have any impact on the DC universe whatsoever, and it shouldn't have an impact on the Batman at all. They are characters that do not matter in the grand scheme of things. I said in my review that him forgiving Joe Chill is cool, but it is unoriginal. He did that exact same thing in many other media including other comics.

Jason looking to move on from Red Hood has been explored so many times as well in Red Hood series, in Batman series. And let me tell you why it won't happen. It won't happen because DC knows that the Red Hood concept sells, which is why Jason will always resort to Red Hood. And how is this next level sadism from Joker? He wants to be Batman's greatest pain? That was already clear ever since Joker killed Jason the first time.

Also it’s clearly a sequel to killing joke and previous books. It’s not supposed to be completely different. If Geoff Johns completely changed the mythos people will eat him alive and say that didn’t happen, that’s silly and fan fiction, it’s forced and so on. So adding to the lore is a hot take lol. Also the fact this Batman for once in his life is a good parent and isn’t just an asshole is a breath of fresh air lol.

Batman already has been facing his demons with the Joker for decades and it has been clear in numerous stories that Batman and Joker will always be a duality. Why do we need another story to show that the Joker is Batman's top archenemy/problem/pain? How does that change Batman as a character? And Red Hood killing the Joker? Cool, there's a Joker still alive at the end of the story.

If there were no Jokers alive at the end of the story, or if Batman was able to overcome his obsession with the Joker or their connection, that would have worked so well. I'll reference Arkham Knight, which is not the best Arkham game, but it handles the Joker/Batman relationship so well. Batman is able to overcome Joker's obsession and lock Joker away from his mind forever, overcoming one of his greatest fears. That is how characters should progress, not just the same thing happening

So the fact that the joker can find out about his kid and wife isn’t interesting 😂 or his son can become a hero or turn a villain by Joker is not an appealing idea lol, to me it has a lot of potential for the future of dc do they ever decide to capitalize on it. Who you kidding. It adds a lot of promise, and impact on the future of dc if they go with it. But hey let’s shut down every interesting idea that can come with this because I can’t think myself.

So you want a story about jokers not to be about Batman but rather him moving on from joker 😂. Boy you should never write a comic.

Cool I guess that's your opinion. In my opinion, the Joker having a son who can become a hero is a really dumb idea. And it has been done in the past that a villain's son/offspring is a hero. And making them into a big deal just ruins the mystery surrounding the Joker. Obviously from a money perspective, the idea of oh my god the Joker's son is alive? We gotta tell a story about him. But from a creative standpoint? that idea doesn't have a lot of merit in my opinion.

Joker Killing Red hood isn’t the sadest part of his life, it’s his parents death that still haunts him, and it’s in every freaking book where he never moves on from his parents death and they do it perfectly here. He’s no healed because he’s done with Joe Chill and he’s in peace with him, that’s what always haunted him and what made him fear. Not red hood, he’s still alive and killing people that’s just one level, what this comedian did is genius and clever, he won after all. Now it’s all him.

And to your last point about Batman moving on from the Joker? Yes I'd love that. I read fiction, not just comics in general, to see story progress and move forward. Why do I want to keep seeing him fight the Joker? When I know at the end of the day the Joker will just escape and live to harrass Batman again. If you want a realistic take as you claimed above, Jason would have killed the Joker at the end as well. I would have liked that more than the ending of this series.

Is it bad for me to want Batman to move on from the Joker? The Joker is an overused character that DC knows sells, so he will be in as many Batman stories as possible. Ironically if they shelved the Joker for a couple years or killed him for a couple years, his story of his return would probably sell more than the stories that they keep telling about the Joker.

But this is three jokers story, how can he move on from the joker? If he killed him, he will be haunted by it forever, he can never escape the joker. That’s the point, that’s why he’s his greatest nemesis. DC can do stories without joker, this story will have no impact on the fact joker will never be used, this book will be too silly and overlooked if that’s why it’s saying lol. It’s contradicting cuz it’s all about the history of the two villains.

But in this story he moved on from Joe Chill. That’s great progress for Batman lol. Are you saying he will forgive joker for the things he did and move on? That makes no sense. The fact dc can use any villain has nothing to do with joker being his greatest or not. Every hero has his greatest villain. It’s not a new concept.

Batman should not kill the Joker. That should be reserved for Jason or be totally out of Batman's control. I never said that Batman should kill the Joker. This story would have worked so much better if the Joker died is what I'm saying. Provide some finality to this Batman joker duality and never ending battle. They've been at it for nearly 100 years. If you want to keep reading joker stories for the next 100 years without an end in sight then good for you, that's your opinion.

That's why when jason killed the first joker, I was very happy he did so. Its the one major thing Jason has done since he has been back and killing joker might allow him to move on from that dark spot in his life

So you’re saying kill joker for good? Sorry for saying this but are you dumb?

Yes, I'd love it if DC had the guts to kill the Joker for good or at least a decade. Why do we need so many joker stories? In the past year we've gotten Joker in dozens of stories. Yes he is an important character, but characters can get overused.

Let people miss the joker or let writers have time to come up with better stories with the joker. Killing him or shelving him for a couple years would allow for that. And it would allow for Batman and the Bat family to progress their characters away from the just more joker after joker story

From what you’ve said it sounds like you’re sick of the Joker, which is fine. Just don’t read stories about him. He’s not in every DC story let alone every Batman story, he’s easy to avoid. Yeah he’s in the black label a lot but most the stories he’s in are good. It was obvious they weren’t going to kill him in this when the artist said it could be canon.

True, the black label stuff has been good. Can't deny that. What I mean by joker oversaturation is what's been going on in the main Batman title, this title, Justice League when it was written by Snyder, Death Metal, Dark Knights Metal as well. Even in doomsday clock, Joker played a role in that. And that's the problem is that DC comics seem to rely on the Joker always being part of Batman stories, which is a problem

They should give any other villain a boost. Besides the Joker, the most recent villain that's gotten a huge boost was Bane in Tom King's run

I see what you mean. I do think after the disappointing joker war and this story joker should have a few years break for underrated villains like mad hatter but nothing as long as a decade.

Yes, my ideal Batman run would work more along the line of Detective where arc would alternate between new and old villains. 6 issues to tell a story for an old villain, while using the next 6 to introduce a new villain or a new story for Batman. So that will keep the reader guessing as to who the next Batman villain or story is. If you keep using the same villain over and over again, with the same story basically, it does get repetitive and readers start to drop books

Never had a plan for Rebirth indeed. So true. I remember loving and being so excited by DC Rebirth Special and each of the promising new arcs that were clearly meant to spin out of it. Well, I re-read it after reading this issue and was flabbergasted that not a single thing in that comic book resulted in anything at all, apart from that dang button. (Remember Diana's brother Jason? Yeah, me neither.) Literally nothing came from that Special apart from the utterly disappointing Doomsday Clock.

You know what, I'm offended that you would compare those movies to Young Justice. And I thought maybe mockery would get my point across. You know, "You're pretty judgy for someone who liked White Knight" or "Unlike the Joker, the villain Loki genuinely grew and redeemed himself as a character when there were no easy pills to swallow." I gave a tinge of a thought to actually doing a real nerdy thing and explaining the character arcs for the major Avengers through the course of those films.

But I know and you know that that wouldn't convince anyone. And you may be asking why I would waste my time responding to someone who I don't even disagree with beyond a digression used to lengthen a review for a book that didn't really deserve that much thought. And I would respond by saying that I have plenty of time to kill because there's no Avengers movie in theaters.

Fair enough, to each their own, I guess. Albeit White Knight is awesome. My broad point was, the comic is an empty spectacle wasting reader's time in a way similar to big team ensemble movies where barely any characters develop at all. With such a diverse and big cast as Young Justice has, I'm really triggered none of them really developed in the span of 15 issues. Bendis' thrown some key personality traits for them and does nothing to explore them, or something besides them. No substance.

Bendis used to write a good team book, but he's just gone very downhill over the years. Case in point, his Avengers runs. When he first showed up, it was crazy. He turned the title into a bestseller. That was in 2004 with Avengers Disassembled. By the time his final run was announced, I want to say that was in 2010 during the Heroic Age initiative, you could audibly hear boos from the crowd. Now, it's been 10 years since then, and I can tell you he wasn't just burnt out on Avengers.

DC wanted 2004 Bendis. The reputation he's ridden since then. But they got 2018, 2019, 2020 Bendis. I don't know why they signed him. His sales on his final Marvel comics were slumped and his critical reception was low. My only guess is that they were hoping he could create new characters to reinvigorate the line.

And that would be awesome. I mocked Jinny Hex a lot, but she has genuine potential to become a good character. Same with Teen Lantern, heck, I actually think she may even be this run's bright new star, I love the concept of bootleg Lantern powers! But instead of focusing on the team and developing new faces, we've got... Drake. I'll be damned, first Rick Grayson, then Drake, oh, and there was an Ian Wayne... you either die a Robin or live long enough to see yourself become bastardized.

I feel like it would be better to compare them to all of the MCU rather than just the Avengers movies. Especially since 2 of the 4 Avengers movies are actually pretty good. The humour of the MCU in general though makes a horrible death seem like an appealing alternative.

Teen Lantern has, so far, had a pretty similar trajectory to that of Riri Williams aka Ironheart over at Marvel. Bendis invented her as this child prodigy who was able to become a superhero with their technical abilities, but he hasn't done anything with it. So now, if the trajectory stays on track, Teen Lantern will be shoehorned into an event where other more established characters will vouch for her, and then she'll be given a huge spotlight for a while.

Which Bendis will ultimately do nothing with, and you'll probably get a lot of complaining. And then once Bendis has used up the character completely, a better writer will come along and finally help them reach their potential.

And I was assuming that Nihilist was referring to the whole of the MCU, but even if they just meant the Avengers movies specifically, my comments still stand. Either way, those movies are definitely driven by the characters and their arcs. If they weren't, the premise of an interconnected universe with a big finale like Endgame would mean fuck all. You want to compare a movie franchise to Young Justice, I suggest Transformers. Specifically the fourth one with Marky Mark.

Yup, gruesome death indeed sounds like a better alternative than listening to even one MCU "joke". To this day I shiver with disgust and cringe when I remember the shameless Star Wars promotion in some of these movies, especially the Spidey scene in Civil War. Awful, awful, awful.

I could also agree with Riri Williams reference, albeit TL didn't invade a foreign nation (yet) and she surely doesn't exist to replace anyone, since the GL corps is vast and diverse. I wouldn't object if she was featured as a younger sister-like character to someone like Jess, Kyle or maybe even Simon, since no one cares about the poor guy and maybe he would finally have anything to do, lol.

Wait, that's the example you choose as an indictment of the MCU? Huh. I'm a fan of those movies and I could've picked something much better. As for the humor thing, it's subjective, but I do notice a pattern amongst those who complain about the humor in the MCU. They tend to have this fringe humor that is mostly unsatisfied, in general. They find the quirkiest things funny. They get more out of a meme than a real joke. I don't know if that fits everyone but I do see it as a trend that I can mock

The foreign nation bit comes after the after the big event appearance. I don't think Bendis wants to make her anyone's sidekick. Seems pretty antithetical considering she's on the Young Justice team.

Dude. MCU is just a meh level popcorn flick and this book is exactly like that: good to look at with an ass ton of characters, but no story and narrative.

The basis for the comparison is just inaccurate. If you think the comparison is apt, I can't convince you otherwise, but it does make me write off your opinion a bit.