It was freaking confusing but that's just comics for ya. Gotta love it.

Also, while the wait for the final issue will be rough, it was even rougher for me when the time between ASM 799 and 800 was FIVE weeks.

No offense psycamorean but I think its best to wait until the final issue for us to conclude that kindred body is part of cloning tech. I mean what if next issue it's revealed kindred is created by mephisto

Well, Kindred does say "this final form" in reference to the different incarnations of Sarah and Gabriel, as in the body he's possessed in the moment, which is Sarah's.

I actually think there are two Kindreds. Unless the stuff with Spider-Man is happening at a different time. If it's not, Kindred has possessed both Sarah and Gabriel.

You mean the rumor they'll make him gay?

@Merlyn He's definitely referring to that rumor.

That would be a total joke. They've already did the "Tim Drake is gay now just because" out of nowhere in a distasteful way, after pulling the same thing with Alan Scott. Thing is, the rumor comes from unreliable sources but while I read this I got the same vibe, to be honest. And it's Tom Taylor, who is obsessed with this sort of stuff so I can definitely see that happening.

Either way it would be a bad decision for Jon, he already has enough problems as a character after Bendis, he doesn't need this as well.

Making him gay won't make the character worse, or ´´ruined`` is Alan ruined now? or Tim?

Well, you probably haven't seen the way fans took the Tim news. Yes, he is "ruined" from my point of view. And pulling something from a writers' ass does make the character worse. Iceman suffered from the same thing when Bendis decided all of a sudden he was gay. You're entirely free to eat up whatever these companies are doing in their desperation to stay relevant and make headlines. And others are free not to fall for marketing ploys.

It's marketing and a way to make them interesting again, of course, but they aren't wasted in the process. I haven't read the whole Iceman thing yet, but it seems they handled it in a nice way after the reveal,also who gives shit about Bobby Drake? He was a B list X-men and he's still B list.

And the way some people took the Tim news was stupid. Acting like his relationship with Steph was erased or some bullshit, it's still there, and they can get back together in the future, it's not a big deal. Plus, there's the whole bromance thing with Connor some people like to mention, so...

Changing the sexuality of a heteronormative character should not inherently invalidate that character in your eyes. What draws you towards a character is their personality. Sexuality can inform a personality, but that is not the case with Tim, Jon or Bobby.

And in an effort to pre-empt the obvious question of if it would be okay to do it the other way around, I would say no. The reason being is that heterosexuality is considered the norm in media and in society, and by taking away from the small group of non-hetero characters, you are erasing the tiny bit of normalization that this group of people gets.

As far as I'm concerned if a character being gay makes you dislike them, you are almost certainly homophobic. What makes it certain is that you are rejecting the idea before you see how it is executed. Therefore, it has nothing to do with how they did it (which you could validly criticize in some instances) but rather the act itself.

@Mout: Iceman was an original X-Men. A lot of people "gave a shit" about him. I don't know where you pulled the "he's a B list". He's an omega mutant, he's one of the oldest characters, he literally debuted in Uncanny X-Men #1. And the fact that you bring up the "bromance" with Conner as an argument for him being bi is, excuse me, disgusting.

It's the same idiotic argument people bring about Bucky and Steve, Thor and Loki etc. Flash news: Males CAN be friends without wanting to bang each other. Something progressives seemed to have forgotten but it's worth reminding. And no, the way people took the news wasn't stupid, it was normal. It was a normal reaction to a DC marketing ploy that disrepected 30 years of character history. Good for them.

Also, just for future reference, in the future I'm probably going to ignore your comments since I'm trying to stay as far away as possible from Psycamorean's rantings and he seems to follow you. Sorry but I just don't want all that crazy.

You know what, I'll unfollow Mout. Mout's commentary is quality and I wish there was more of that on this website, so anything to stymie that is unacceptable.

If you don't like it, you're something-phobic. That sentiment seems disingenuous. But I'm sure it makes conversing with people easier.

And why make Alan Scott gay? His son already is, so why not focus on him? Give him some great stories that would elevate his status as a hero, as a character. What story has Alan in store for him? Only one I bet. That he couldn't come out because 40' and 50' might not have been friendly for gay folk.

That's my problem with gay characters in entertainment these days. They seem to be mosty getting one type of story. One revolving around their sexuality. Either they discover it, explore it, have to hide it, get bully for it or embrace it. And changing established charachters gay sentenses them to the same fate, while established gay characters get sidelined.

@Merlyn, even though he's one of the originals, he war never that important. Never had with Claremont, Morrison or Whedon. And he became an Omega mutant in the early 2010's, I guess

*never had the spotlight with

@egon: That's exactly why I think Tim is "ruined". From now on he won't be detective Tim, he will be "queer Tim", most of his stories are going to be focused on that instead of what made the character beloved. And I'm sorry but that's of no interest to me. DC just didn't know what to do with him and this was the way to "make him interesting" again, if by "making interesting" one understands changing his sexuality out of nowhere.

@Mout: I'm sure you're smart enough to see the whole thing your buddy did here was totally unnecessary. I didn't ask him to unfollow you, or nothing of the sorts. All it was needed was some self-control from his part, to be able to ignore me just as I ignore his 34752424 reviews about MY reviews instead of the actual comics. Guess he couldn't pull that very difficult task. Regarding Iceman, I continue to disagree and I think you're underestimating his importance in the X-Men universe.

@egon The problem with that argument is that one, it's not true, and two relationships have been a part of superhero comics forever. What you're asking for is to remove that aspect from them entirely or else, you'll be annoyed at yet another comic about a gay character being gay. You don't have this issue when straight characters get into relationships, I assume.

I think prophesying about any of these characters' futures is a bad idea. Everytime a status quo or a character is changed, you get this fearmongering from the same crowd that they'll never be the same again. To act as though it's not politically motivated is to be disingenuous and cowardly. We just saw it with Batman. Wild conspiracies about how progressivism was going to replace or kill Bruce off so a black Batman can take his place. That was never happening.

That was never happening... except it DID just happen. Bruce is taken off from Gotham so Jace Fox can be Batman there. But when reality is constantly deformed so it can fit one's narrative, you can just reject the actual reality with no problem.

I'm really glad you decided to give up the drama and followed Mout back. I would also ask Mout to stop interfering with the discussions I have with other users since he considers the discussions he's having with me talks that "don't go nowhere". Why would you initiate a conversation with someone if that's your mindset about them? Thank you very much, Mout, I hope you'll respect my wish forward.

It's not happening though. The main Batman title is still a Bruce Wayne title. The theories about what would happen claimed that Bruce would no longer be in action and he would no longer have a book after Fear State. But not only is he still around, he still has the main title. He's a cashcow. Whatever ideological inclinations you think DC has, remember that capitalism trumps that.

I said Bruce will not be in Gotham while Jace Fox will. Didn't mention anything about the main title. Yes, the main title may be with Bruce but all the action is in Gotham. I get that this is DC's way of trying to have it both ways for money but having Batman removed from Gotham so Jace can fill that spot is kind of in line with the theories. Same thing with Clark Kent, he's going off to Warworld so Jon can remain Superman here, I'm sure even you can see a pattern here.

Hal Jordan's been sidelined while Jo Mullein is getting the spotlight, Diana is in limbo, Arthur Curry has been dropped as Aquaman for Jackson Hyde. All in line for the FS JL lineup. I added this because I'm sure your next argument was that two cases are not a pattern. There are more than two cases.

@Psycamorean Well, Bruce seems to be getting butted from Gotham so that the Usurper may take his place. So I would argue that the "fearmongering" was justified. Now it looks the sights are set for Aquaman and possibly Wonder Woman. Was DC not paying attention when the All New All Different Marvel fiasco happened? And true, relationships were part of the comics, but with straight characters, after the relationship is somewhat established it doesn't seem to be the driving force behind the story an

behind the story anymore.

@Psycamorean What I'm trying to say is this. I want writers to leave the established characters as they are and use the existing ones or create new ones. Changing established characters drastically and out of nowhere will always get pushback. So will sudden replacement with a new character immediately after introduction (I'm looking at you Riri). I want writers to make effort, to try. Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Tim Drake did not become popular overnight. That took work and good stories.

@egon: I'm really sorry for this whole long thread, if I would've known this would happen, I wouldn't have asked that question.

@Merlyn I wasn't specifically referring to you when I talked about the other crowd. I was referring to a whole group. While you may have not said that, plenty of other people did. Including established comicsgaters and websites like Cosmic Book News. I recognize that Future State ideas are being mixed into the mainline continuity, but I don't see that as an issue when the older characters are still getting their books/pages. Bruce gets Batman, Clark gets Action.

I don't know much about what's going on with Aquaman. I don't pay attention to him. Wonder Woman will be back on Earth at the end of this extended first arc, IIRC. And Hal is in Green Lantern, but it's a very big ensemble cast, so he doesn't get a ton of pages.

@Psycamorean You want a prominent gay (or minority) superhero? Very well. Take Obsidian, Midnighter or Apollo and give them some good stories and build them to prominence over some time. You want Jackson Hyde to be the new Aquaman? Great. But don't do it in some six-issue mini. Make a long story out of it. An entire run. One in which he actually works with Arthur a lot and in the end, after much work and effort, earns the title.

@egon What kind of phrasing is "Usurper"? As someone who was reading Marvel through all that, I will say the ANAD era was overblown. But there are several stories where relationships are the driving force. I'm more of a Marvel guy, so it may be more prevalent with them. The problem with creating new characters is that when they do that, you still get people giving them shit for making the character gay. It's called SJW propaganda or whatever.

The problem you seem to have stems from the fact that the comics industry is tiny, and they aren't in a position to just create new characters that have an ample chance of making it on their own. They have to be tied, in some way, to the big characters. And making them any sort of minority, be it black or gay, or whatever, makes those chances even worse.

I didn't like how Riri was introduced and how she replaced Tony, either. I chalk that up to Bendis being Bendis though, and I don't make it about something more than it is, by implying it's a political agenda. But I will say, I've come around on the character with how she's been written since Bendis left. The only problem is, no one read that, so I look like a crazy person for liking her now.

@Merlyn What can you do? If you could predict the future I'm pretty sure you would not be wasting time here :)

I feel like there are examples of what you're describing, egon, and I feel like the response has still been the same, even in those cases.

@Psycamorean I think a great way to introduce new characters is to somewhat tie them to existing ones. I still can't understand why DC didn't put Yara in Wonder Woman alongside Diana after FS. It would give her a bigger spotlight rather than a solo series that gets no marketing. If Riri was working with Tony instead of flat out replacing him, I think the response would be much better.

I think we'll see more Wonder people interaction when Diana comes back to Earth. You've also got Nubia as leader of the Amazons right now. And to be fair, Riri worked with a version of Tony Stark, technically.

@Psycamorean As for Usurper. His book is literally titled "I Am Batman". Aside from Lucius (who became a bit of a dick recently), he has no ties to Bruce Wayne and Batman. So if he runs around calling himself Batman, he is usurping the name a bit. Some might even go as far as to call it a form of appropriation (wink, wink). That last bit is a bit of a joke. Then again people called for prison for someone for drawing a white dude in Black Panther costume, so maybe not a joke after all :)

@egon Usurper is just such an indignant, personal term to use for a comic book character. It portrays an anger that just sort of confuses me. As for your joke and explanation for it... Cool, I guess. I don't really know anything about some crazy assholes calling for someone's imprisonment for drawing a white dude in a Black Panther costume. That seems like a really fringe story you heard once and held onto.

@Psycamorean You seem to be doing a lot of assumptions about the other party in your responses.

Eh, I'm not sure about that.

All I got from this is that someone said that because Tim is bi, it's disrespectful. People here don't make any sense anymore. Go join VanSciver and stop reading these comics if you hate them so much. It's not like Jon is going to be Superman forever. We all know this. As well, people are reading way too much into their own agendas and reaching then they try to call Taylor xenophobic in reference to Clark saying it's not his planet. It's LITERALLY not. He's trying to teach his son a lesson.

Pretty much. It's just bad faith reductive interpretation of the material in order to bolster a political view. I don't think it's done intentionally. It's all gut reaction, without a ton of thinking.

People here should learn to read or at least try to understand others before commenting. Especially people who block others and then reply to comment on stuff the people they've blocked comment. It's really stupid on their part. Further commenting about "thinking" with these people is also pretty ridiculous.

Who?

I was not referring to you, obviously.

Anyone here with actual sense would realize how hypocritical Merlyn's last comment was. He never tries to understand anyone else's opinion unless they echo his own. It is also obvious that he doesn't try to understand the comics he claims to read because if he did, he'd realize how ignorant and objectively wrong his comments were in regards to this issue.

Who are you talking to? If you try to attack me have at least the guts to address me, not in a void. Otherwise it's pretty cowardly on your part. Either address me or just shut up since I don't really care what someone who blocked me from the first day he made his account has to say about me. There is nothing ignorant and objectively wrong in any of my comments and you obviously are illiterate since you don't know what "objective" actually means.

You've misread comics before, the one time that stuck in my head was with Green Lantern #3, where you thought Hal was Parallax despite it obviously being a flashback to that time period when he originally became Parallax.

Read more or at least try to understand the words you're using otherwise you're embarrassing yourself. And I do try to listen to others, the hundreds of comments on my posts show that, a lot of the time them being with people I strongly disagree with. I haven't seen the same from you. Oh wait, you just block people who disagree with you and then have the nerve to tell me about listening to other people's opinions. If that's not hypocritical, I don't know what is.

Not that this carries the conversation in a meaningful manner especially in regards to the content of the issue, I am allowed to block who I want, I just find it incredibly disappointing that Merlyn is so ever present on this site and does nothing but spew hate toward comic creators that he dislikes for their political views. If you want it to be, "like the good ole days" there are plenty of back catalogue trades being printed. Overall, this issue is solid and people are complaining for nothing.

It carries the conversation in a meaningful manner because you're a coward who wants to be respected and doesn't really deserve it. You've blocked me, cool, now shut up about it and stop inserting yourself in conversations just to gossip about me but without actually addressing me. Like a coward. And all that mumbo jumbo about "spewing hate" and "the good old days"... I'm sorry, but freedom of speech is still a thing here. You don't like it? No one is keeping you hostage here, you're free to go.

So to be clear, I'll keep reviewing this and people like you make me all the more eager to make sure I don't miss a single issue of this. Also, a lot of other people beside me have rated this pretty low. Guess not everyone here thinks like you do. Tough. Deal with it.

Well, just as you have the freedom of speech to say what you want, he has the freedom of speech to say what he wants in response. That being said, misinformation and bigotry shouldn't be allowed here because the normalization of that ends with more freedoms being repressed than those that remain.

Not as long as he's blocking me and clearly believes he shouldn't engage in dialogue with me. You can't do that and then comment about someone, not even having the guts to address him. And all that ranting from that last phrase has nothing to do with what we're talking, it's just more of your sick game of trying to taint others so you can make them shut up. It won't work.

If you block someone, you clearly don't want to engage in dialogue with them. Btw, I have you blocked and I don't want to engage in dialogue with you but this is the fourth time you're interjecting here and I feel like you can't take a hint so here I am. So what he's doing here is like seeing people talk, then coming in that group, cover the mouth of one of them talking while proceeding to bad-mouth him at the same time. That's the behavior of cowards.

I don't find it surprising you're defending him since you would defend Satan himself as long as you're parroting the same narrative.

You know what, maybe I am wrong sometimes. I do find myself wondering why am I entertaining someone whose reviews are more than half of the time about my reviews instead of the actual book or at times didn't even read/review the book but still finds the energy to complain about my opinions. That doesn't really sound very healthy and I don't think I'm doing you a favor by keep doing this. So, you know, feel free to keep commenting here, I'm gonna pass on keep answering.

Well, blocking someone doesn't make it so you can't see their comments on other threads. You can see mine, after all. So no, that analogy doesn't work. And you know what, Satan is a cool guy. He tried his best. I'm only defending him because you're being extremely uncharitable in an effort to ignore them while still ranting about them.

I read everything I review. And I only comment on your opinions after I've read the comic in question. I wait to release my reviews in bulk when I've read everything, and depending on the week, that can take some time. And my reviews, more often than not, have nothing to do with you. If you don't believe me, check them out.

I read the issue and found it fantastic. What a certain demographic seem to find "cringey" I found funny because I knew it would get under their skin while still drawing attention to how tremendously important the issues were. It's a new, progressive Superman for a new progressive world and I loved it.

Oh so you celebrate something that gets "under THEIR skin" but we're supposed to shut up about it because you're a progressive and you're right. That sounds pretty ok. For a crazy and shitty person. It fits.

"A new progressive world". Don't know if you realize just how brainwashed you sound. But of course, "they" are wrong, not you, no, sir. Well, screw your "progressive world", I don't give a crap about it and I'll review this book until crazy, shitty people like you can't take it anymore.

How about we quit with the insults and actually argue the ideas? We don't even have to do it here, we could do it on a separate platform like Discord.

I know Merlyn will say no, because he never actually argues ideas. He just gestures at perceived progressivism and degeneracy, and thinks that's enough. That's why his responses are very empty. So, he's rightfully afraid of actually being put on the spot.

K. I'll still answer the coward when he replies because cowards should be put in their place.

I don't know if Hex will do it. All I know is that I'd love to see the ideas actually argued instead of this shit.

facts.

facts.

I would love to know how old people in here are too

And I would like it if people who claim that talking with someone will not go anywhere would abstain in the future about interjecting in conversations with that someone. But what do you know, none of us will get what we want, apparently.

All I was trying to say that there was still an important message to be found even if it was a bit heavy handed in it's execution but I do believe it was the point, hence why I found it funny and it did clearly get under people's skin.

@Merlyn bro... I said that because we can talk about shit all day and you, me and psycamorean would still hold the same opinions, but I still think it's healthy to talk to people that don't agree with you on every level

with that being said, I really don't understand people on this site that keep reading shit they seem to hate. Especially if you are spending money on the issues.

"I'd rather have you as a friend here than being in discussions that don't go nowhere" See, I also think me and some people here will never see eye to eye. But I never go with the opinion that a conversation with someone will go nowhere. If I do that, I just block that person and never engage in any dialogue with him because if there is absolutely zero common ground, we'll just annoy each other.

Like Hex said, there are TONS of back catalogue that are way better than most of the stuff Marvel and DC are putting out now

I do try my best to find some common ground but if our positions are so polar opposite and the other tries to either "convert" me to his "ideology" or just shut me up, then and only then I give up and I block them. You, instead, begged for his friendship claiming all the same you would rather not continuing conversations with me because they go nowhere. So it seems only fair to ask that you stop trying to engage in dialogue with me since, by your own admission, it's fruitless.

This is all incredibly petty, and you should probably just move the discussion to why you continue to read comics you don't like.

Not your business.

what? no one is trying to brainwash you or something, but ok 👍👍👍👍

Well, we know you don't pay for your comics, so it's not an expense thing. It's just... You're wasting your time.

Again, not your business. You know, I was thinking about unblocking you since you did the same and do it as a courtesy but given all your behavior here I'm not really sure I want all this crazy on my reviews.

I couldn't care less about what you do. Insulting me poorly doesn't help either.

It’s unfortunate that people that love Superman will be put off by politics that represent what Superman has stood for since Action Comics #1’ but I agree that some will. I enjoyed your review.

@Batman Jones My possibly unpopular opinion: If someone lets their own personal views dictate the quality of a comic, it's an example of bias. Good reviews on comics should be unbiased regardless of your views (political, religious, etc.). Good reviews should focus on the craft of the comic and how well the creative team told the story.