The Bane part of his plan was to emotionally destroy Bruce and make him more willing to stop being Batman and be his son again. Hence the line "You were defeated. Broken. Body and soul. That's behind you. In Gotham. Now, here it is time to rebuild. To show them how strong you really are. Son. My little boy. You don't have to worry anymore. About anything. Your father's got you." Notice he says to rely on his father when he says rebuild himself? He is manipulating Bruce emotionally into

thinking his whole life spent as Batman was a waste and that he could have the chance to make it all good again by having his parents back. A plan I believe Batman would not go along with, without his mental breakdown. At the end Batman says "I remember the blood, the pearls. Knowing I would never see you again. I was too... difficult. I... forsook my life. I surrendered to a vow. And now what was that worth?" And then Thomas encourages that mindset with peptalk.

(Also I still don't entirely buy that it is Thomas. I still can't get over that Hush took his spot in the gang in Batman #72's Flashback.)

But the problem with that is Bruce's craziness is not crazy at all. No one believes him, sure, but he's remained on point about Bane. So that leads me to believe that his judgment, while strained, is still very much there.

Plus, Bruce knows Thomas worked with Bane to help break him. That would further strain the relationship they have. Why not help defeat Bane with his son, reconnecting with him, and then pull the Weekend at Bernie's with Martha's corpse?

Why approach the emotional manipulation from such an antagonistic angle, unlike most emotional manipulators would?

His end goal is to have a family again, he is going about it in the stupidest way possible. So you better be right about the Hush thing or this Thomas Wayne Batman is a chump.

I think everything is quite stupid here. Bruce is a grown up man, so I don’t think emotional manipulation by a mass murderer would work here. King writes Bruce as a fragile personality, but while Bruce has issues, he never is so weak as written here. And point also is: everything Bane did to him is forced& unbelievable.

That’s why you guys are delusional, you only think Batman can be written one way. Humans are irrational in behavior, and Bruce is human it doesn’t matter what someone else thinks when it’s not genuine.

Bruce is that special kind of human that can have their back broken only for it to be healed within a few days.

I don't think he can only be written one way, but by the logic of this series' characterization of him, it still doesn't really work. But the characterization is dependant on the story King wants to tell at that moment, so no wonder it's inconsistent.

Me neither, but he shouldn’t be written out of character& that’s exactly how he’s written in Kings run. There are so many problems with this run.

So much judgment of parts of the story that just haven't been told yet. King tweeted today that an explanation of Flashpoint Batman is coming. I honestly don't get the criticism that an unexplained thing won't be explained because it hasn't been explained YET. Did I miss the news about #73 being the last issue in King's run?

It's not so much a complaint to me. It's an annoyance. It's the only reason I'm interested in this plot line and this issue's focus. So to have to wait almost 25 issues for the answer, if not more, when in the past these answers have almost always been underwhelming and lackluster, is annoying.

Fair enough. For me I tend to wait for the end of a story before judging the story. Totally fair though to turn a story off in the middle. I do that all the time and if I were hating this run that's what I'd do. I actually love the waiting because it builds anticipation and because I've enjoyed every issue so far but everyone's opinion is equally valid.

I'm not sure which answers have been lackluster though. From my perspective really nothing has been answered yet. I get the frustration over having to wait so long for the answers and I'd feel the same if I weren't digging the book but I'm honestly confused as to what's been answered.

Everything about this entire run has been lackluster and that’s being generous.

@Batman Jones. im willing to give writers time usually, but it’s been 73 issues & there are not any answers.

73 issues and we knew from the start to expect over 100. It is probably too late for rewrites as well.

If solicits are any indicator, Tom King has definitely rewrote parts of this run. Also, maybe if the story was actually properly paced then we wouldn't be complaining about how long it is. But it's paced like shit. The Knightmares arc is the epitome of that.

Yes, I for sure didn’t complain about the length of Knightfall or No Mans Land, but those stories were better written.

It's the fact that nothing else has really happened in these 73 issues. It's all one big really lackluster storyline so far. I haven't read Knightfall yet, but I can bet it didn't have fever dream arcs. I can bet there were real fights with villains and sublots that all had their conclusions along the way. And I can bet the writer didn't tell everyone it was going to all be a fight with Bane spread over 100 issues!

Knightfall was also just a big dumb 90s' story not unlike Death of Superman. Tom King's run isn't. It is philosophical, experimental, and literary. Clearly something that divides Batman fans practically down the middle. I would understand the complaints if this were the only Batman book on the shelves, but there are so many to choose from. Why can't one of them break the mold and experiment?

(Also I like Knightfall, sorry for calling it dumb.)

(Also I do get the complaints because that book happens to be called *Batman*, so it is mainly treated as the main Batman storyline, would people care nearly as much if this was being done in a book not DC's flagship title?)

I don’t think they (we) would be as angry if it weren’t the main title.

"philosophical, experimental, and literary" are not the words I'd use to describe this run. I'd go for "pretentious, poorly constructed and sophomoric."

They are the same thing really. All philosophical or literary work gets labeled pretentious by somebody.

It reminds me of something Sam Kieth's friend said in the back of I Before E. How his and Bill Messner Loebs book Epicurus was hailed as

Well-written, philosophical, thought provoking, emotional, but also amateur and sophomoric by others.

Well, I don't know if their book was that bad, but this one definitely is.

Hear, hear, Br'er

I just wanted to start my riot, when you said Knightfall is dumb lol I’ve read works of real philosophers& Kings Batman run is not philosophical. I assure you, rather pseudo philosophical. And can you blame people? Batman is one of the most important comic runs of DC, it’s canon& King clearly doesn’t know how to write these characters. He doesn’t know them, so of course fans are upset, since Batman run defines the characters. If King wanted to experiment he could have done black label.

However he clearly isn’t talented enough for writing an important run like Batman. Maybe he’s Didios lover, I can’t find another explanation, why he has so many freedoms in DC.

i'm definitely in agreement with Darkseid24 here. Batman is DC's biggest cash cow, and they handed it to someone that doesn't understand or respect the character or his mythology. he's too busy breaking the character down, to the point of not being recognizable anymore. and he never shows the slightest inkling that he'll ever build him back up. Batman is supposed to be the ideal. the peak of human performance both physically and mentally. but NOT Tom King's Batman. his Batman is pathetic.

Agreed. And it seems most of modern writers have no respect for the characters.

What speaks against it is, that Martha most likely would be insane, that it would cause Bruce more pain & that it’s overall just sick& twisted. Not to mention, that Thomas isn’t his real father, but father of a Bruce from an erased timeline. This sounds like fanfiction to me.

Yeah, she most definitely would be insane. I worry she could become her Flashpoint self or something. Can't blame Thomas for trying to bring her back, though. I don't dislike the concept so far. We'll see if it becomes pure fan fic, or maybe derails due to King's usual awful writing.

Yeah agreed, but guess Thomas also doesn’t understand, what moving on means.

This entire run has seemed like bad fanfic.

Both Thomas and Tom can't let go it seems. I can't wait til this run is finally over.

I agree with you both. But who knows, maybe someone worse is taking over after King.

I have a hard time imagining that at this point. Especially some one this bad staying for this long.

Azzarello could be worse. Look at Batman Damned or The Killing Joke's bastardized animated movie. But then again, we'll see. I just hope DC won't make the same mistake and try to give someone a gigantic 100 issue run.

Tim Seeley would be the worst

King will go down as THE worst Batman writer ever IMO.

Honestly, that's probably already proven untrue.

Who’s been worse?

And I did say IMO, that makes it ok. It’s in the Geneva Conventions.

Neal Adams.

Eh He’s at least been a part and contributed to the greater Batman mythos with the Death of the Madians I believe. I may be wrong about that one but he was a part of some big stories. Art wise. I don’t consider him a writer.

i'd go as far as to say that Tom King is a far WORSE writer than Neal Adams. at least Neal didn't make Batman an incompetent boob.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XjKWgJgaZls/WX_lvjtBVxI/AAAAAAAAKbo/RfCggw_WUpUSyJM6JWpFCK1VCwgQ9flgwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO008.jpg One of many examples.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/holly-robinson-takes-down-batman-4.jpg

that page you shared from Batman Odyssey is still a million times better than the page i shared of Holly Robinson takes down Batman.

@ Nihilist Batman Damned is great so far& it’s an Elseworld. Azarello also is nowhere as bad as King. Geoff Johns would be worse. He ruined every character I care about, really everyone, so if he took over it would be a nightmare becoming real. And speaking of Holly. Does nobody care about, that she’s a psycho in Kings run?

Geoff Johns is the best writer DC has by an incredible margin.

Sure. Because he’s so talented, that’s why he erased everything about the New Gods, changed their look, erased their relationships, weakened their power level, turned them into jokes, turned Darkseid into a big joke he hasn’t recovered. It’s obvious Johns has zero respect for them. Just like he wrote Scarecrow as the total opposite of who he is. In every story since the 40ies Scarecrow hates being afraid& hates Batman, Johns wrote him as someone, who loves being afraid& who needs& likes Batman.

I sure wouldn’t call someone like Johns a great writer, who has zero respect for the character & who knows nothing about them. I prefer King over Johns every time. Not even King ruined characters like Johns did.

It’s ok to be wrong.

Agreed. Not all read the New Gods, so of course you can’t realize what a crappy writer Johns is, if you don’t know the characters. With Scarecrow however people should, since he’s more popular.

Not a New Gods guy for sure but I’ve loved pretty much everything else Johns has written. Even his Scarecrow stuff. While it may have been out of character, it was still well written. Something King has failed to do.

i have to say that Geoff Johns Batman Earth One was a real hatchet job. he butchered Batman almost as bad as King did. though not nearly as severe.

I see Earth One as much more forgivable because it’s basically an Elseworlds. So he didn’t butcher the main Batman, just an alternate version. Very different than King.

His take on Scarecrow thankfully didn’t stick& him being part of Sinestro was still kind of cool, but he was still severely out of character& unrecognizable, so Johns should never touch his character again, if he has no respect. I love the New Gods and what Johns did to them was rape, slaughter I have no other words. If he did the same with Batman, Then his entire background would be changed, he would look differently act differently, act like an idiot& would be cannon fodder in every story.

Writing characters out of character, forcing your idea on them, while not caring whether it fits their characters or not& not respecting these characters is the very definition of bad writing& Johns did this with Scarecrow & even worse with New Gods. Therefore he’s not a good writer. A good writer respects all characters& not just his favorites.

Batman Earth One wasn't so bad, but sure, it portrayed certain characters out of character. At least none of them tried to rape Bats nor was a gangsta rapper, which Azzarello, the edgelod he is, did. Riddler was pretty terrible there, though. Joe Pesci-like Penguin was great, on the other hand, I loved this take.

Comparing what he did to characters to rape and slaughter is why too far. They are fictional characters, there is no comparing OOC writing to such horrible acts. He tried to update characters that few people seemed to care about and make them popular for a new generation. New Gods have never been household names, except for maybe Darkseid. I hate Kings writing but even I don’t go as far as you did with that post.

@Nihilist It was an Elseworld& it was supposed to be for adults. Don’t think it’s edgy, since if you look at real crimes some mass murderers are doing worse stuff with their victims. Comic criminals are still nice compared to real people. You could make Joker way more terrible than he already is. @ Talon No it’s not, because that’s exactly what Johns did. He butchered them. Read more New Gods comics, then you might understand, why I’m so angry with Johns writing. And what King did to Batman

still can’t be compared to what Johns did to the New Gods. Their characters are pretty much dead, even when they are alive& that’s all thanks to Johns & his crappy writing. There was no reason at all to change everything about them.

They had a small fan base though. That’s the reason they changed things. To try to reach a broader base. He tried to make a very small subsection of the comic community linteresting to more people. They don’t compare because Batman is probably the most recognizable comic character in existence. He didn’t need to change. I’d argue that the New Gods did.

Still not comparable to rape though. Let’s be real here.

A good writer could make a great story to reach more fans. He wouldn’t need to change everything about these characters. Johns messed up big here. And you said yourself, that you don’t know much about the New Gods, so read more comics with them before saying that. As a big fan of them I say there was no reason at all to change & butcher their characters.. Johns JL & Darkseid War is an abomination. It hurts reading that crap, since it’s wrong in so many ways.

I also think every character should be treated with respect, no matter if the writer likes this character or not or if it’s a lesser known character. They all deserve to be treated with respect& done justice to their character. Johns didn’t& that’s why he’s an awful writer.

I think you’re wrong. He wrote the only version that I ever found interesting. But that’s me.

Then you make no sense. You are criticizing King for writing Batman out of character, but defend Johns for doing the same with the New Gods. The difference however is, that Batman will recover& already did in other runs, but New Gods are ruined now. Like I said read more comics with them, maybe you’ll understand my problem with Johns. As for me he should stay as far away from the New Gods& Batman characters as possible, but wait he’s going to ruin Joker as well in his 3 Joker Story.

As a fan of the New Gods, I would like to know how Geoff Johns ruined them.

Like I said, one is probably the biggest property to ever come out of comics and one is made up of characters that very few people recognize. The New Gods aren’t ruined forever either. The right writer can fix them. I’d say Vanditte, May have spelled it wrong, did more damage to them than Johns did during Godhead storyline.

@ Br‘er By erasing their entire history, turning them into weaker versions of themselves, erasing every meaningful relationship between these characters, turning them into completely different characters to the point where they are unrecognizable, changing their looks. Turning them into jokes. @ Talon So you are saying, that writers can mess up characters as long as they aren’t as popular as others? I disagree. A good writer does every character justice. And it’s not like New Gods are D

characters, they are B/ C characters & Darkseid is a major JL villain& Johns turned him into a big joke. Godhead also sucked, but not like Darkseid War or JL. They are pretty much dead. Look how bad Mister Miracle& Female Furies are. It’s just painful to read as a fan. And even JL Odyssey can’t keep up with older stories. As long as DC sticks with their stupid New52 Interpretation they will stay dead, since it’s not what these characters are.

I’m saying your definition of messing up a lesser known character is skewed. Had he done nothing they would still be obscure characters that few people care about. I though Morrison did a much worse job than Johns. Darkseid War was an extremely well received story. I loved it for the most part. It got the characters you love back out into the fore front of the DCU. If not for that, they would possibly still be languishing in obscurity. We are just.not going to agree on Johns though. At least we

Can agree that King sucks. Lol

The New Gods aren’t more popular because of Johns. Darkseid War was well received, because it’s a Batman/ hero fanboy story. The New Gods had fans before& if anything they are more popular thanks to Kings Mister Miracle. Morrison did a terrible job as well, but he didn’t humiliate Darkseid & turned him into a joke& he also didn’t erase everything about them. Johns is a crappy writer& New Gods are the best example for this. Like I said he should just stay away from them.

We will never agree on Johns. I still say he’s the best writer at DC. Even if you don’t like his New Gods, have you tried Green Lantern, JSA, Justice League, Flash, Booster Gold, I mean he’s written so many great titles.

I like the New Gods because of Jack Kirby, also I only read the last part of Darkseid War to prepare for Rebirth, so I missed on what Johns changed about them, other than baby Darkseid. Which was a good idea, completely wasted by aging him up almost immediately in Wonder Woman.

Personally wouldn't call him THE best, but certainly, he's top tier. Who could compete with him? Easily Morrison and Gaiman (even though he doesn't write anything right now), very, very maybe Snyder, Tomasi and Tynion, but still, Johns is an industry giant. He made mistakes along the way, but most in-continuity ones should be fixable.

He’s not top tier. He's a wanna be Morrison. Just like King, but King hasn’t butchered characters like Johns did. @ Br‘er In which twisted World is baby Darkseid a good idea? That’s how you ruin characters. It was a mockery of Darkseid. Not to mention, that Darkseid is a brilliant strategist& not some idiot, who runs headless into battle as what Johns portrayed him as. Making the heroes gods& Lex Darkseid only shows how little he knows about the New Gods. Lex could never contain Darkseid‘s power

since he’s only human. That was stated before ( what Johns totally ignored). Same with the Omega Beams. They aren’t just dumb lasers Johns portrayed them as, they are connected with the source& they can annihilate everyone in less than a second. Not everyone can control them, because they come with horror ( what Johns also ignored, when he put Grail in it). And they certainly can’t be stabbed out with a stupid trident.

What Johns did was ridiculously powering up the earth heroes& weakening the New Gods in every way. Same with Metron. Metron himself is one of the most brilliant characters in DC. He’s the one, who created the mother box& the moebius chair, not someone else like in Johns bad fanfiction. Not every idiot can be Metron just because he is sitting on that chair like Batman did. Batman wouldn’t be able to use the chair, since it’s technology that goes beyond his understanding. So no Johns is a crappy

writer, who only cares about characters he personally likes& who doesn’t respect other characters. Plus that he doesn’t care at all about contuinity. Guess it’s too difficult to read even one New Gods or Scarecrow comic.

Dude, that’s the whole point, no one, very few, give a damn about the New Gods. Johns at least made them interesting to a new generation. I like his take but I can’t stand Kirby’s first incarnation. They’ve been a joke for years. Hell, Darkseid tried to get Superman to make a porno with Big Barda. Mr Miracle was used as comic relief in the JL international. Morrison had Turpin contain Darkseid. They haven’t been written well in decades. Johns is widely recognized as a top writer. You’re just

Wrong in this instance