I think it was the fear gas& that Dick called him pathetic. Something similar happened before Absolute Terror Pre52.

Damn feel like that is a let down of a motive

It actually fits Scarecrow. He took revenge for similar things before. The same happened before he killed all those people in Absolute Terror.

yikes! this storyline sounds like a hot mess.

I think it's poorly paced and bad. But not everyone does, if you look at other reviews!

i'm a glutten for punishment. i know i'll get the collected edition anyway. who knows, i might end up really liking it? ...i thought that very thing when i bought all the other Nightwing collections from Rebirth. what's the definition of a crazy person? someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. :-P

The only way we'll get a different result is if DC puts top talent on the title and DiDio gives up with his hate brigade.

i really do not understand why DiDio dislikes Nightwing/Dick Grayson so much.

I think it's because it makes Batman look too old or something.

if that's the case, then he should definitely want to kill off Damian.

@myconius If You are Open for a different approach of Nighwing it doesn’t suck at all. Or if you are a fan of Scarecrow you’ll like it too.

I'd argue we've been waiting for a "normal" Nightwing run since before Grayson.

@Darkseid24 - even though i always have been getting the Nightwing trades when the come available, this arc has been built up so much i'm going to HAVE to check it out! - - @YourGreenMuse - very true! Forever Evil may not have killed-off Dick Grayson, but he's never been the same since.

@ myconius you really should, but don’t expect a normal Dick Grayson comic. @ YourGreenMuse With that I agree. I didn’t like Grayson though& the explanation for people not remembering Dicks secret identity was also weird.

“ric” is absolute garbage, just like the writing. This entire arc is very subpar, nothing more than a 5/10 tops. Grayson had a much better concept and execution than this drivel and “the nightwings” might as well be called “the generics”, they offer nothing of value to the story.

Don’t think Ric is& compared to other stories we are currently getting the writing is pretty good. Grayson didn’t& you can’t judge that yet, since it’s 6 issues, why Grayson had 20. The Nightwing have a value to the story= they prove, that not everyone can be a superhero/ that Nightwing is really needed in Bludhaven.

Been done already, much better, so it’s nothing new. There is no value to them as they are just generic, pointless characters. You don’t think ric is garbage, but the general concensus is he sucks. Judgements can be made, hence these reviews. This current arc is atrocious, just because you dig the villain doesn’t mean it’s not utter garbage.

When was Dick ever shot in the head& replaced by policemen? Therefore it is new. They are new characters& will be around much longer& therefore you can’t judge them as characters. There are also good to great reviews. Your opinion isn’t absolute. It is not& yes Scarecrow is the best in it, but Ric& the new Nightwings aren’t nearly as badly portrayed as you make it sound. The story is not so far& it’s not „utter garbage“ just because you don’t like it.

Jesus christ man, it does not have to be an exact copy. There was a character in the 90’s called Nite-Wing he became a vigilante trying to emulate Dick, and quickly realized how out of his depth he was. That is the same conceit behind “the generics”. Your opinion that this is great is also far from absolute, since more people agree that this is a bad turn for the title. No matter how much you want to claim this is great, it’s not.

Nite- Wing was totally different. He beat up people, who did him wrong. He wasn’t a hero. The Nightwings on the other hand are doing things by the book. They help innocent people. Therefore you can’t compare it at all. Many people, who hate it, haven’t even read it. They just hate the idea of Ric& don’t give the story a chance at all. And majority of professional reviews ( = objective reviews) are great to good. So my point still stands.

He was a vigilante, they are vigilantes. You say the help people, all they’ve done is beat up criminals. It’s the same thing, but if you can’t recognize something that blatantly obvious it’s clear no discussion is worth having you’d miss the point entirely. Just stop, man.

You are talking about me missing the point, while you still keep failing to give arguments. No Nite- wing was a criminal, while the new Nightwings are trying to help people. Big difference. Ok let’s stop here, as I said.

Forget the argument about whether this is good or bad. I disagree a ton with the idea that professional reviews are somehow more valid than the fan reviews. Disparities in scores on certain comics like this issue show that users and critics disagree often. The biggest example of that is with overtly political comics that clearly exist to get a political message across. Critics eat that up. Users, however, tend to dislike it. Look at America or Border Town.

Critics have just as much bias as users. They're not objective. The label of critic somehow gives precedence to the just as flawed opinions of other people. And I think pointing to the critics and saying, "Well, they like it." is just as useless as pointing to any user review, if not more so because of the apparent disconnect between critics and readers.

i have to admit, YourGreenMuse definitely has a point about the "professional" reviews. i don't remember the users name, but a few years ago they were leaving "user" scores, then a short while later they were posting for a website and were getting to leave "professional" scores. the only reason i mention this is i did notice they were a total DC enthusiast and would score a LOT of 10's. even when i myself would be more critical. most of those "pros" are probably reviewing for amateur websites.

When I say professional reviews I mean objective reviews. As a professional reviewer you also have to review comics/ books etc. you normally aren’t interested in& still you can’t give it a low rate just because for example a character doesn’t interest you much. Of course there are also professional reviewers who can’t stay objective, but they should, otherwise they are just biased. And if not even professional reviewers can’t stay a little objective there is no need for reviews.

For example I’m not interested in Flash at all, but if I had to do reviews for a magazine or online page it would be really unfair, if I gave it just 2/10 just because nothing of Flash interests me. That’s what I mean.

A lot of the people reviewing Nightwing care about Nightwing, but what we're getting isn't that for better or for worse. We've had a new character thrust upon us because of what happened in another title. I think people have an objective reason to be upset and it's up to the creative team to assuage those feelings by making something good.

But clearly, what's being made isn't connecting with most of the readerbase.

And I don't think it's just because readers refuse to give Ric a chance.

There's examples of things like this in comics: When Tony Stark was put into a coma at the end of Civil War II, Riri Williams took over as the protagonist of the Invincible Iron Man title. A lot of readers hated it (I was not a fan myself) but many of them have grown to like the character once she wasn't being written by Bendis.

Sure, I can understand why readers don’t like the Ric idea, but still this story gets more hate than it actually deserves. It’s not on the same level like Pre52 comics, but compared to other current DC comics it’s way better written. And the Ric story is Kings fault, not Percy’s or Lobdells fault. So people at least should blame him.

They're the ones writing the story. King may have caused it, but they're the ones who have to do something with it. And good comic writers are able to do a lot with what little they're given. Percy's run before Ric was not good and Lobdell has done some bad work in the past. These aren't writers that had pristine resumes before this story.

They are both better than King& they did their best with making the best out of this Ric disaster. Lobdell‘s Red Hood run is great& he is doing a good job with portraying characters in Nightwing so far. Characters are actually explored here& not out of character, As for Percy his Nightwing run is still better than Grayson.

Just compare Kings awful dialogue he gave Dick in the issue where he was shot with Nightwing since Lobdell took over. Dick doesn’t sound retarded there, while I almost was happy when he was shot in Batman 55, because Dick at least stopped talking such nonesense there. Overall King failed to make Dicks injury meaningful. It directly lead into an out of character story of Batman.

There's no way for Ric or almost any characters in Nightwing to be written out of character since they're all new. Scarecrow is the only major character that isn't created for this story. Percy's run was abysmal. Even if you still think it's better than Grayson, that doesn't make it anything approaching good. And whether Percy or Lobdell are better than King is irrelevant to this discussion.

I didn't like how Dick was written in Batman #55, sure. And while Lobdell's dialogue is better, he's no longer writing the same character. I'd argue the injury is as meaningless as it has ever been since we hardly see any recovery from it or the reactions characters have had to it. Just glimpses here and there. With Ric's narration and the writing telling us it doesn't matter since Ric is here to stay.

Ric isn’t a new character. It’s Dick with amnesia, so of course it’s possible to write him out of character. Percy’s run wasn’t so bad at all, still better than Grayson& #50 actually was great. It’s not irrelevant, because the Ric story started in Kings run& you can obviously compare who wrote the character better. In this case: Percy& Lobdell.

With meaningless I meant, that King just ignored the headshot& showed us Batmans hunt for KGBeast, while Nightwinh just skipped Dicks life being in danger& showing him being alright. They just skipped the exciting parts like Dick fighting for his life& what effect it has on his family.

So ric can be written out of character now? Because he is. What King did was editorial mandate, not his own idea, it’s also what led Percy to leave the book. But I’d gander someone familiar with the books would be able to tell. The last statement you made, you don’t think it was poor form for the writers of his title to do that? Because it is. Just accept people dislike this direction and leave it, others opinions should not affect yours but you clearly have to place what you think as “right”.

Ric is very different than Dick. A clean slate to make a character whatever you want them to be. Like they have. I consider them separate characters since their character traits are so different. Percy's run was probably the worst since Rebirth began, but that's all opinions.

He is not that different, he is still helping& protecting people, but he obviously had to change a little. I personally liked Percy’s run more than Dicks New52 one& also Grayson. @RBL Never said that. We don’t know why Percy left the book, King himself stated on Twitter that only he himself is to blame for the stories he writes. I could have lived without the Ric story& just have Nightwing vs. Scarecrow for a few issues, but Ric is a thing now. It won’t be permanent, so I give it a chance.

I like it up until now, but I have the feeling 56 will ruin everything, so I don’t know, if I stay that enthusiastic.

Editorial decision supersede was a writer can do. It was stated why he left, editorial forced him to cut his story short to make this ric business take place. He disagreed and a writer change was forced. Glad you like it so far, I despise it and nothing so far has made change my mind. Learn to live with that.

Do You have a Link? Would really interest me. However Percy already wrote 50 with Ric in it, so it doesn’t make sense, that he left because of that. It however proves my point of King being responsible. It was his story. I think with Jokers daugther coming next I also won’t like it anymore. Why her?

*supersedes what a writer can do.

It doesn’t prove your point... Editors can demand the writers to follow specific ideas and storylines. They probably made King fit what happened to Nightwing in his book as part of their plan for the character. What part of editorial mandate do you not get?

In the tweets announcing his departure from the book he stated “I really wish I could have told the story I planned to tell”. Inferring from that it’s clear higher-ups were not allowing him to continue writing the story he had ongoing. His departure was probably forced, as inferring from that it seems as something he did not foresee. Whether he was removed from the book or left it, it’s clear it was not his choice to write the current arc. Which for the Nth time I will state is straight up trash

this is just my guess, but i'd wager it was King's idea to have Nightwing shot cuz it adds to Bruce's temper tantrum against Bane.

If you read Nightwing #49, I think you'd clearly see how quickly and forcibly the whole Dark Web plot was wrapped up. It was supposed to be a much longer stoey, like Percy's Green Arrow run. It, as a concept, has moved over to Batgirl, too, meaning it'll likely never be finished as intended in Nightwing.

*story

I see how it adds to the conflict, but I also can see it as Didio forcing it on the Nightwing title or hearing it in a meeting and deciding to just run with it consequences and common sense be damned.

@RBL Ive read that tweet and that’s like only your assumption, that he was forced by anyone. In another interview he stated, that Nightwing is a character, which can change& thst change is good. He also already wrote 50, meaning he was totally fine with the Ric idea. And yes it does prove my point. King being forced to write what editors demand is yet again only your assumption. In his tweet he stated, he alone is responsible & that is actually a prove. So you are only assuming some weird things

just because you don’t like the Ric idea. Point is it was Kings idea& he even stated, that his plans evolved Tim too. @YozrGreenMuse It was but Percy already wrote 50& he wouldn’t have if he had a problem with the Ric story. I’d rather assume he had other plans for Knight Terror DC didn’t want.

I don't think he only wrote 50 for no reason. If he was fine with the idea, why did he leave the title after writing part one of an arc?

His plan was to continue the Vire arc he was working on. He was FORCED by editorial mandate to write this “ric” arc. Ergo why he stated he wished he could have told the story he wanted to tell. He would have stayed on with the title if he agreed with the direction.

The story he wanted to tell could mean anything. Percy/ King being forced to write the Ric story is only your assumption, not a fact. But believe whatever you want. @YourGreenMuse Maybe he had different plans for how Knight Terrors should be. The Nightwings are Lobdell’s idea. They weren’t originally in the story. You can see that by old Solicitations& old covers. Guess DC wasn’t fine with Percy’s ideas for 51+. Scarecrows story also would have been different, if you look at 50& old Solicitation

sounded more like we would get more flashbacks with him. Dick originally was supposed to fight Scarecrow alone. Don’t know if that’s good or bad. Hopefully good.

He stated in multiple interviews his idea for a “big cyber war” story, and it was what he was building up for, or did you not read that. His plans were cut short for the amnesia storyline. Dan Didio, noted for hating Dick Grayson, is also a co-publisher at DC and he would easily allow for this asinine thing to happen.

But I mean you’re the “expert” here and the guy that “understand the character” right?

True, but like I said he also stated in an interview that Dick is a character who can change& if he hated the Ric idea so much he wouldn’t have written 50. Besides DC easily could have postponed the Ric story in Batman until Percy’s Cyber story was done. Didio doesnt hate Dick, he just stated, that his character is complicated, because he grows older. Again you are reading stuff into comments, that weren’t even said. And you begin to sound really butthurt.

And honestly the Ric story is much better than Dick driving with the motorcycle& trying to find Vickie.

The art really is inconsistent but I really liked the art. It reminded me so much of the Hawkmen run from the 90ies. As much as I liked this issue, I have the feeling 56 will mess everything up.

That's great that you like the art. I have never read the 90s Hawkman. In fact, Venditti's run is the first I've actually read more than a few issues of. Yeah, hopefully the next issue isn't too bad.

Hawkman from The 90ies was good, but I also haven’t read all of it. I hope so too.

this trade waiting business is not easy. i can't but help be curious and look through reviews, but i don't want to spoil it too much for myself.

I never wait for trades. I’m always too curious. Only for stories I’m not really interested.

i used to always pull everything. as long boxes pile up, and the quality of the stories get less and less worth re-reading i've made the painful transition to forgo getting all that i want and trade waiting the "IFFY" titles.

I read digitally. I buy the trades of the series I really enjoy.

that's a good tactic. a few years back i was buying single issues as well as HC & TPB of the stuff i really enjoyed as well as digital. more and more i found the quality of new comics to be noth even worth reading the first time. i might have to try out your strategy.

It's a good way of keeping your actual collection free of any blemishes.

true! too bad they don't let you put some of the digital stories that you don't like towards purchasing other digital books.

Yeah, you're stuck with them... A buddy and I buy mostly everything from the big two each week. I buy Marvel and he buys DC, both of us being bigger fans of those respective companies, and then we share.

But we usually end up feeling less regretful towards our purchases because we tend to like what's being put out, usually.

that's really quite cool, actually. :) ....the comic sharing, that is.

Yeah, it's basically the only way you can be a huge nerd about comics nowadays if you aren't rich or you can't write them off on your taxes.

yeah, i've mostly trimmed down my comic spending by narrowing down what i buy, as well as trade waiting certain titles. it wasn't easy going cold turkey on some of the titles, though i was finally able to withdraw without going into shock.

Scarecrow had many different plans over the years (what are you talking about?)& your comparison with Batman Begins makes no sense, since it didn’t do Scarecrow‘s character justice at all& unlike in Batman Begins he isn’t reduced to someone else’s puppet in Nightwing 55. The Nightwings are on the cover for 58, so I guess they will be around a little longer,

His plans are basically just variations of “release fear gas”. He might not be working for someone but covering parts of a city in Fear Gas to make the citizens attack each other and run amok is what he did in the movie and the same thing shown in the pages. The “nightwings” are trash, the character of Nite-Wing did their arc better in the 90’s. I am aware this travesty will last for a while longer, that’s why I lambast it every issue, it’s not worth putting to print and needs to be cut short.

You could say the very same about every villain. Joker is also always basically doing the same= commit a crime to get Batmans attention. Scarecrow had a different plan here: he posed as a psychiatrist experimenting on people& now he challenges Nightwing. That’s not the same at all. Besides Batman Begins did a terrible job with portraying him, while Nightwing does an excellent job with him so far. You can’t compare the movie with this at all. Don’t think the Nightwing are that bad so far.

That’s like only your opinion& with the weird comparisons you are making I begin to think, that you haven’t even read it.

Judging by how you rate these issues, I find myself questioning your read comprehension as well.

*Reading

How so? I at least gave reasons, why I think it’s good. It’s one of the best portrayals of Scarecrow since years, Dick sounds a lot better than he did in Batman 55 ( the dialogue is so much better) and compared to stories like We are Robin the Nightwings are way better portrayed up until now. You are basically just saying it’s trash& try to compare things that can’t be compared. That’s it.

So because you consider a character’s dialogue in a single issue of a title from a writer you’re biased against somehow makes this good? The Robins were far more interesting than “the nightwings”, Nite-wing and even Jason Todd were better in their role than these guys. It’s not my fault you can’t connect obvious dots and are blinded by the fact you like the villain so much you fail to acknowledge that this is pretty lackluster writing. We won’t come to an understanding here.

Fyi, there is an arc is Nightwing where Jason Todd becomes Nightwing, that was a fresh storyline for its time. I also don’t care for Scarecrow, so what you claim is the “best thing” in the arc doesn’t really sway my opinion. And the dialogue is pretty forgettable, there are no moments that draw me in or convince me to keep reading. I only read it to stay up-to-date, because I sure as hell hope this asinine change is reverted sooner rather than later.

Kings dialogue for the characters all sound pretty much the same. His characters tend to babble over nothing. Catwoman,Joker did& it was ridiculous how he portrayed Harley. None of the characters do this in Nightwing. Ergo it’s better written. What they say makes at least sense. That’s an opinion, but I thought the Robins were boring. With Nite- wing you can’t compare, since there is a big difference as I already explained to you. That’s too early to judge. Jason is way longer around than the .

new Nightwings. You are the one who is biased here. If you were objective here, it wouldn’t matter if you are a fan of Scarecrow or not, since when you are making reviews you should be able to judge the portrayal of a character no matter if it’s a favorite of you or not. Just proves my point of you being subjunctive. Scarecrow was perfectly portrayed here& this issue was mainly about him. So I wouldn’t know why this issue should be judged for something it wasn’t even about.

subjective

It’s called overarching storyline, it’s a big factor to consider within an issue. You absolutely can compare Nite-wing with “the nightwings” because they are attempting the same thing. You placing so much importance on a singular character, not even the protagonist, as the sole factor for such a high score does not make it an objective assessment. You just seem bull-headed in trying to convince me I am wrong and this is good, that won’t happen. Don’t pretend you are not biased here.

There is no point in continuing this discussion because like I said before, WE WON’T COME TO AN AGREEMENT. However, I find that my belief stating this is a subpar COMIC to be far more realistic than your 9-10 scores.

Scarecrow is the main villain here& therefore one of the main characters for Knight Terrors. Therefore he is just as important as every other character in this comic. And I do not.I keep pointing out, that also Dick is in character, but you ignore that. We won’t, but professional reviews are proving my opinion, while they don’t with your rating.You are just hating on everything here: art, characters, story& the story/ art doesn’t deserve that, ergo you are obviously biased.

And when I look at your other reviews, Nightwing isn’t the only run you are hating on.

The art is ill-fitting and not aesthetically pleasing. ric grayson was initially presented as an off-brand Jason Todd and you claim he cares about people when he has shown that for a grand total of 2 characters while pushing everyone away and stating he does not care about what can happen when people ill-suited to his former role decide to take it on. The story is based on a concept I find asinine. HiC has not matched the hype and bendis on Superman is terrifyingly bad, so what?

The art is great& how about you draw a comic before hating on the art someone else worked hard on? He helped more than just 2& did more to help other people than average people would. He only pushes Barbs& the batfamily away. Everyone else not. He has good reasons to push them away& maybe you should read something about trauma, then you might understand the Ric story better. HiC isn’t over yet, therefore it’s too early to judge& Bendis isn’t so bad either.

You know what, you stick to your opinions and I’ll keep mine. I think bendis is an atrocious writer, the most ill-suited person to have on the superman books and someone who crapped all over the mythos. I obviously know HiC isn’t over yet, but it could be reviewed since issue 1 so it not too early to judge. I honestly don’t understand why you are so dead set on forcing your opinions on me, but that is something you are failing at.

You are trying to force your opinion on me as well, but yes let’s agree to disagree here. Maybe we already agree next issue, who knows. As for Bendis I saw worst writers.

Ric wasn’t even much in this issue& say what you want, but Scarecrow‘s part was great in it. People have to realize, that this Ric story is going on a little longer, but all the hate it gets is not justified.

It’s justified, because it’s a crap concept with crap execution. Sure the villain might be good, but that’s just one aspect that works, if the rest does not the resulting book is still a mess.

If the villain is well portrayed ( at least we can apparently agree on that) half of the story is already done. And don’t think Dick is worse portrayed than before 50.Sure it’s not on the same level like Noghtwing from the 90ies, but there were worse stories with him. Like Grayson/ the explanation how he can be Nightwing again after his secret identity was exposed. If 56 doesn’t mess it up, I’ll like the story.

The villain is not half of what makes up a comic book. There is general plot, the characterization of the characters involved (the villain being ONE of them), consistency with continuity and if it makes sense within the same, dialogue, art, inks and colors. Thinking just one character done well is half of the job is shortsighted.

If the villain sucks a big part of the story sucks. Think of Catwoman this week, the villain ended up being underwhelming, which made the story underwhelming. The general plot is good, which = in this case Scarecrow stories & how Dickis coping with his trauma. The characters are all in character, especially Scarecrow& Dick is acting as he should given the circumstances. There is nothing wrong with contuinity in this story. Dialogue is way better than in Kings Batman run. Characters don’t sound

all the same. The art is up to opinion, but it’s far away from looking like trash.

That’s your opinion, which clearly isn’t the popular one here.

Since when does quantity mean quality? Majority of professional reviews are good to great, so I guess my opinion is. Again your opinion isn’t absolute.

I don’t see any rating for this issue in the green. This title at present is subpar, just because you’re all about the villain doesn’t change the reality that this is far from “great”. And just like you state my belief this is crap is not absolute, so is yours that this is actually “good”.

7 = yellow is still good. There were 2 times a 10/10 rating for this issue, 5 times an 8, 3 times a 7& 2 times 6= good to great as I said. Professional reviews prove my point of this story being good.

User reviews show a different story. Critics have more to lose if they decide to lambast something over general users. This is a bad storyline, and regardless of what you want to say I won’t change my mind on that. Just like you apparently believe this is “amazing” when it’s average-at-best. There is no point to discussing it further.

There aren’t much user reviews& users often aren’t objective, while professionals mostly are, ergo they matter more. But ok let’s agree to disagree here.