Nihilist you'll have to excuse Tom King for all the unaddressed plot threads left hanging, and every detail he has overlooked. ...he was too busy patting himself on the back for being so clever, and eating a cucumber sandwich.

Of course. And he got this sandwich at Porky's, let's not forget that!

hahahaha! he was awarded a year supply of cucumber sandwiches when he signed up for the Fall Out Boy fan club. :D

so this is the second time DC has killed Alfred in the comics, right?

You mean in main continuity @myconius? Because I remember in main continuity he died long time ago in 60's smashed by a rock when saving the life of the Dynamic Duo and then soon returned as a very weird rogue named The Outsider. In Dark Knight Returns Alfred dies at the end. And recently he died in Injustice killed by Zaz for Superman order. And maybe there are another 1 or 2 times outside main continuity but right now I don't remember at all.

@Detective Chimp - yeah. in the main continuity. he sacrificed himself to save Brice & Dick, and was replaced by Aunt Harriet, then due to Alfred's popularity they just brought him back. i suspect somewhere down the road DC will be widdling Alfred being alive back into continuity, after they're done trying to capitalize on ALFRED R.I.P. ..not sure if i want to actually waste $4.99 on that.

do you ever notice the people giving low score reviews about tom king comics are pretty concise about what they didn't like. ....and on the flip side people that give the high scores give the most vapid reviews ever.

Yeah, I rarely see high score reviews pointing out what is great about his run. King went from mediocre to awful for me. And I actually had some hopes for City of Bane. Villains taking over Gotham normally makes a great story.

eh. the Villains taking over trope has been done so many times over, and by far more competent writers. all tome king ever does is rehash other writers ideas, but very poorly executed. there's better fan fiction out there than what this bozo is churning out.

Exactly. It’s sad DC basically made bad fanfiction canon.

Because Tom King is and always has been a fanboy. Damian knows whatever King knows, because Damian read it in the deep dark secret libraries of the Hall of Justice...

Don't worget about his deus ex wand. He has it, because of course he has it.

Damian is just going to headbutt Bane and yell " I AM BATMAN "

I guess I expect too much logic from King lol

instead of headbutting, maybe he'll slam his butt onto Bane and yell " i have irritable bowel syndrome "

IBS for the win!

"IBS for the win!" ....oh my god! that's what this Batman run needs to be called! :D

I felt like I was reading a FAKE BATMAN! LOL

It’s so awful, that trash describes it best.

bloody maggot infested fecal matter might actually describe it better.

True.

Yo they killed Alfred ?

The execution is poor. By keeping Alfred a secret, there is no building of suspense. Instead of intense nervousness, we get a huh? The death won’t stick. Or I could be wrong.

Precisely. As often with King, it's shock for the sake of shock. Hope the next writer will retcon his crap.

don't worry. writers like Peter Tomasi have had to clean up after worse messes than this. Batman will be on another mission to some other supernatural world to resurrect Alfred. ....everything Tom King does just feels like a cheep gag. who the hell actually falls for this crap?

Or it gets ignored. I mean Kings run doesn’t fit at all with Year of the Villains,Alfred is alive in Doomsday Clock& Detective Comics also ignores it. With a better writer it could have been a great story, but King isn’t talented enough.

With a better writer it was a great story. it was called Knightfall by Chuck Dixon. a real comic writer. not this fly-by-night shoemaker.

True.

I think King doesn’t even care at that point. If you look at his scripts on Twitter it shows quite well, that he doesn’t care much about writing a good story.

to tell you the truth, i don't think he ever cared. but now that he knows that he was fired before his 100th, he cares even LESS. .....it's hard to imagine a level even lower that the lack of caring that he had when he first started this awful run.

Is DC really in trouble? Or is this your personal opinion based on your dislike for Tom King's work?

I think he cared at the beginning, but after the marriage everything turned just really bad. DC is in no trouble other comics are doing just fine.

here you go Egon. read it for yourself. - - - - https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowitz/2019/07/31/where-does-dc-fit-in-atts-vision-for-warnermedia/?fbclid=IwAR17m94Fh7DUdCaN0mHfipeyWbRsO8sVfCWqteOiewMhwaSQRTz3zbQvYX8#5ca0419779b7

DC has already ended Vertigo and and for all intents and purposes has ended Mad Magazine. does that sound like a personal opinion, or does it sound like DC is in trouble?

Actually I read that comics in general are all on a decline because kids these days just don't read them like they use to. And that a lot of the fans today are long time fans

They didnt end Vertigo, they changed The Name.

no. DC did shut down Vertigo. there are tons of articles about it. Black Label is not the same as what Vertigo was. https://www.slashfilm.com/vertigo-comics-shut-down-dc-comics/

comics have been on the decline for years, but there was a core audience keeping it going. unfortunately both Marvel and now DC have chosen to turn their backs on and alienate their longtime fans. they've divided their fanbase.

LOL a Chinese friend told me DC wants to send comics to Chinese fans but most of them hate Batman issues and this writer. GOD BLESS DC LOL.

LILIANREVO i wonder why DC would want to do such a cruel thing to China?

DC want to explore their market to save the declining sale of current issues I guess. But it won't work, I bet u my life. Few people in China like this writer and they prefer SS, TT and Tomasi better. They hate this writer so much that they call themselvesTK PTSD or Batcat PTSD LOL.

TK PTSD and Batcat PTSD are actually perfect names!

I read the article myconius. To me, it doesn't seem that DC is in trouble i.e. facing extinction/doom/bankruptcy/etc. Just the "Big Boss" in charge has some other ideas. Sad, sure. But it doesn't mean an end to Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and the others. And just for clarification, when say "Big Boss" I don't mean Snake.

AH! if Snake was in charge, they'd be number 1 in the industry!!! ..no. i definitely don't think DC will be closing up shop any time soon. but this tightening of the belt does have me worried. laying off Mark Chiarello was a major loss. and i really feel that taking away Swamp Thing, Hellblazer and Animal Man away from Vertigo with the new52 was a huge mistake. i just hope they don't end print and phase into digital. as much as i may complain about clutter, i love my books and comics.

"I love my books and comics". I can get behind that.

Issue 74 : batman gets beaten because of his broken back and escape from the pit not knowing what to do Issue 75 : still broken he tries to find the help of someone in the mountains and get rescued by cat Issue 76 : moved in paris, bruce is healing Where is the plothole ? It is as easy finding an explanation as saying this doesn't make sense

Darkseid24 - Thomas Wayne was a doctor before becoming Batman. that being said, he put a band-aid of Bruce's broken back, then kissed his boo boo and made it all better.

Sure& next issue Bruce is making Origamis in Hokkaido. In issue 78 he will drink some tea with Putin, because why not?

hahahaha! no. next issue with be Bruce eating thirty pounds of chili with extra hot peppers. ...issue 78 will just be filled with 9 panel grid pages of Bruce sitting on the toilet. the comic will end with a double page splash of Bruce flushing the toilet. X"D

Nah your both wrong. Next issue has Selina teaching him pole dancing and issue 78 has Bruce revealing he's secretly been a cross dress named Fluffy Tutu since way back when Bane broke him the first time.

cross dresser ......... One of these days I shall learn to type !!!! lol

Lol

Fluffy Tutu . . . . . . . PERFECT!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂

LOL

i don't think you're wrong at all.

this is probably one of the best reviews you've written in a while. many excellent points.

Thank you :)

you're most very welcome! ^___^

Not a Lazarus Pit.

What else? @ Batman Jones

Nain Pit. We've never heard of it before but another review pointed out it's a Biblical reference. A Lazarus Pit can only restore the newly dead. This is something else we've yet to see in a Batman comic.

The Nain pit is just another Lazarus pit. You should have learned after HiC to stop reading too much into things.

I never liked the character of Bane. I always rgought he was pathetic and weak, The only time he is ever able to beat Batman is after others had already weakened him mentally and physically. And even then he has to juice up to do it most of the time. I do agree with you on Bat daddy not being his father. And the hugging him was not believable at all.

@Talon1load, Nain is not Lazarus. Here's a good article: A significant amendment... A Lazarus Pit is not a Nain Pit. We have no IDEA what a Nain Pit does... https://www.cbr.com/batman-lazarus-nain-pit/

Oops. Copied the wrong comment. Still, check out the article.

It’s going to be pretty much the same thing. It’s not like King has had an original idea in the last 73 issues. He may call it whatever he wants but it’s a damn Lazarus pit.

We just disagree about this whole run and that's okay. From my POV virtually every idea King has had on this run is original. But people don't have to agree about art of any sort and they really shouldn't. Good and bad aren't and can't be objective things when it comes to any sort of art. Everyone experiences art differently and that's how it should always be. I hope you enjoy the next Batman writer better. Peace. :)

I think we disagree on the definition of original. He has not done anything that has not already been done before. Other than making Batman useless. That is an original spin in the character. I guess I can see where you’re coming from when it’s framed like that.

Of course that’s not what I meant but you knew that. No hard feelings. I don’t have the time or inclination to explain myself to people that just have very different ideas about what’s original or about this run. Keep on keeping on. Peace

I agree with you Talon. I don't think all of Kings run was bad. There were some good moments. I enjoyed seeing a lighter version of Bat's at times. I loved the date night issues. And I liked the issues where Cat and Bat fought side by side. I hated the whole Gotham and Gotham girl stories. I just thought they were useless characters. I have never been a Bane fan so I'm not enjoying the current story that much.

However the fact that Catwoman will be fighting at his side in City of Bane does make it more enjoyable. The war of Jokes and Riddles was good but it could have been better I think. So this run was not all bad. I do think King could use with writing tighter stories. Shorter stories. Because lets face it some of them went on forever. He also could work on his dialogue. Add more of it and less crap.

I MEANT i AGREE WITH YOU BATMAN JONES. SORRY TALON I PUT THE WRONG NAME DOWN

i have to agree with Talon1load. King's Batman is pretty useless, and all his stories feel like bad knock-offs of ideas that were handled better by more accomplished writers. i mean how many times are he going to see Tom King have Bane break Batman's back? it's like a bad parody of Knightfall.

Lol. I was confused for a second. No worries though.

I agree with Talon& myconius. Apart from making some characters unrecognizable nothing was original. Not even the ending in Jokes& Riddles. Batman would have been a killer in many stories before, it it wasn’t for luck or other people stopping him. Thanks to King I also can’t take Bane seriously at all.

I'm curious what characters do you think were unrecognizable? And how?

Batman for the most part. If he wasn’t wearing the suit, and wasn’t referred to by name, it would be easy to think this was a different character based on how King has written him in comparison to almost EVERY other writer. No one has ever written him this weak and ineffectual before.

Holly was turned into a Psychopath& of course Batman. Nightwing acted like a total idiot, Bane also acted weird. The way Batman treated people, Thomas is out of character. Catwoman was out of character, when she went to prison. She hates being in prison. Catbat is ooc. Joker was also awfully portrayed.

I don't really agree with all of that. Bat's wasn't weak until just lately. For most of the run he was okay. And it makes sense that Bat's would lose it a little over Catwoman leaving him. It was the first time Bruce let himself truly openly feel for someone. I rather liked seeing a bit of a softer side to him. I can't say I care over much for they way the nightmare/Bane story is playing out right now.

I think right now he is being written rather weak. Too weak. As for Thomas I don't really think there has been enough written about him to get a complete picture of who he is. It is completely possible to picture him as having been confronted with the son he lost and having lost him wife it's possible he could in his grief come up with the plan of bring his family back together. Though I don't think he would have worked with Bane against his son.

Unless he thought to do so was the only way he could get Bat's to agree to his plan of bringing his wife back. As for Catwoman I don't really get the story of her being in prison. Was that story covered anywhere else? I liked how Cat and Bat were together. I love them as a couple. As for the Joker he's always changing. So I thought he was wrote okay. I liked the story where he was waiting for his invite to the wedding. Nightwing was his usual fun self. He's often a goofy idiot.

Bruce is acting like a teenage crybaby since 50 not like an adult. And no. First of all we saw nothing, that Bruce opened more up to Catwoman than he already did in other stories. Then he for example opened way more up to Natalya in the Dark Knight than he ever did to Catwoman in Kings run. King is acting like he did, but nothing like that was shown in the comics. And that’s why it feels so cheap. As for Thomas we still don’t know why he’s even here& it makes no sense, that he even considers

It's part of his charm as a character.

Bruce being his son. He‘s from an erased timeline after all. All of this sounds like King has never thought the story through,

In the prison arc There was talk about how they wrote letters to each other and how it was were he confessed his love for her. It would have been nice to have had that fleshed out but we didn't get that.

That’s a big part of the problem with Kings run. He tells you a lot happens without ever showing you. Almost the entire WoJaR was that way. I can’t stand that. Weak characterization and most of the story happening off panel is a terrible way to write comics.

True he does leave a lot out that shouldn't be left out. it would have been nice to have more clarity. It would have at least lefr the reader feel like the story was moving towards something

@ Talon Very good point. That’s one of the problems I have with King. He often just mentions all the exciting stuff, but never lets the reader experience it.

Oh well his run is almost over so I guess we will see what if anything comes out of what he left out. With any luck it will at least be more interesting then it has been.

Yeah you’re right. I just hope his big change is something good& exciting.

The Bane part of his plan was to emotionally destroy Bruce and make him more willing to stop being Batman and be his son again. Hence the line "You were defeated. Broken. Body and soul. That's behind you. In Gotham. Now, here it is time to rebuild. To show them how strong you really are. Son. My little boy. You don't have to worry anymore. About anything. Your father's got you." Notice he says to rely on his father when he says rebuild himself? He is manipulating Bruce emotionally into

thinking his whole life spent as Batman was a waste and that he could have the chance to make it all good again by having his parents back. A plan I believe Batman would not go along with, without his mental breakdown. At the end Batman says "I remember the blood, the pearls. Knowing I would never see you again. I was too... difficult. I... forsook my life. I surrendered to a vow. And now what was that worth?" And then Thomas encourages that mindset with peptalk.

(Also I still don't entirely buy that it is Thomas. I still can't get over that Hush took his spot in the gang in Batman #72's Flashback.)

But the problem with that is Bruce's craziness is not crazy at all. No one believes him, sure, but he's remained on point about Bane. So that leads me to believe that his judgment, while strained, is still very much there.

Plus, Bruce knows Thomas worked with Bane to help break him. That would further strain the relationship they have. Why not help defeat Bane with his son, reconnecting with him, and then pull the Weekend at Bernie's with Martha's corpse?

Why approach the emotional manipulation from such an antagonistic angle, unlike most emotional manipulators would?

His end goal is to have a family again, he is going about it in the stupidest way possible. So you better be right about the Hush thing or this Thomas Wayne Batman is a chump.

I think everything is quite stupid here. Bruce is a grown up man, so I don’t think emotional manipulation by a mass murderer would work here. King writes Bruce as a fragile personality, but while Bruce has issues, he never is so weak as written here. And point also is: everything Bane did to him is forced& unbelievable.

That’s why you guys are delusional, you only think Batman can be written one way. Humans are irrational in behavior, and Bruce is human it doesn’t matter what someone else thinks when it’s not genuine.

Bruce is that special kind of human that can have their back broken only for it to be healed within a few days.

I don't think he can only be written one way, but by the logic of this series' characterization of him, it still doesn't really work. But the characterization is dependant on the story King wants to tell at that moment, so no wonder it's inconsistent.

Me neither, but he shouldn’t be written out of character& that’s exactly how he’s written in Kings run. There are so many problems with this run.

So much judgment of parts of the story that just haven't been told yet. King tweeted today that an explanation of Flashpoint Batman is coming. I honestly don't get the criticism that an unexplained thing won't be explained because it hasn't been explained YET. Did I miss the news about #73 being the last issue in King's run?

It's not so much a complaint to me. It's an annoyance. It's the only reason I'm interested in this plot line and this issue's focus. So to have to wait almost 25 issues for the answer, if not more, when in the past these answers have almost always been underwhelming and lackluster, is annoying.

Fair enough. For me I tend to wait for the end of a story before judging the story. Totally fair though to turn a story off in the middle. I do that all the time and if I were hating this run that's what I'd do. I actually love the waiting because it builds anticipation and because I've enjoyed every issue so far but everyone's opinion is equally valid.

I'm not sure which answers have been lackluster though. From my perspective really nothing has been answered yet. I get the frustration over having to wait so long for the answers and I'd feel the same if I weren't digging the book but I'm honestly confused as to what's been answered.

Everything about this entire run has been lackluster and that’s being generous.

@Batman Jones. im willing to give writers time usually, but it’s been 73 issues & there are not any answers.

73 issues and we knew from the start to expect over 100. It is probably too late for rewrites as well.

If solicits are any indicator, Tom King has definitely rewrote parts of this run. Also, maybe if the story was actually properly paced then we wouldn't be complaining about how long it is. But it's paced like shit. The Knightmares arc is the epitome of that.

Yes, I for sure didn’t complain about the length of Knightfall or No Mans Land, but those stories were better written.

It's the fact that nothing else has really happened in these 73 issues. It's all one big really lackluster storyline so far. I haven't read Knightfall yet, but I can bet it didn't have fever dream arcs. I can bet there were real fights with villains and sublots that all had their conclusions along the way. And I can bet the writer didn't tell everyone it was going to all be a fight with Bane spread over 100 issues!

Knightfall was also just a big dumb 90s' story not unlike Death of Superman. Tom King's run isn't. It is philosophical, experimental, and literary. Clearly something that divides Batman fans practically down the middle. I would understand the complaints if this were the only Batman book on the shelves, but there are so many to choose from. Why can't one of them break the mold and experiment?

(Also I like Knightfall, sorry for calling it dumb.)

(Also I do get the complaints because that book happens to be called *Batman*, so it is mainly treated as the main Batman storyline, would people care nearly as much if this was being done in a book not DC's flagship title?)

I don’t think they (we) would be as angry if it weren’t the main title.

"philosophical, experimental, and literary" are not the words I'd use to describe this run. I'd go for "pretentious, poorly constructed and sophomoric."

They are the same thing really. All philosophical or literary work gets labeled pretentious by somebody.

It reminds me of something Sam Kieth's friend said in the back of I Before E. How his and Bill Messner Loebs book Epicurus was hailed as

Well-written, philosophical, thought provoking, emotional, but also amateur and sophomoric by others.

Well, I don't know if their book was that bad, but this one definitely is.

Hear, hear, Br'er

I just wanted to start my riot, when you said Knightfall is dumb lol I’ve read works of real philosophers& Kings Batman run is not philosophical. I assure you, rather pseudo philosophical. And can you blame people? Batman is one of the most important comic runs of DC, it’s canon& King clearly doesn’t know how to write these characters. He doesn’t know them, so of course fans are upset, since Batman run defines the characters. If King wanted to experiment he could have done black label.

However he clearly isn’t talented enough for writing an important run like Batman. Maybe he’s Didios lover, I can’t find another explanation, why he has so many freedoms in DC.

i'm definitely in agreement with Darkseid24 here. Batman is DC's biggest cash cow, and they handed it to someone that doesn't understand or respect the character or his mythology. he's too busy breaking the character down, to the point of not being recognizable anymore. and he never shows the slightest inkling that he'll ever build him back up. Batman is supposed to be the ideal. the peak of human performance both physically and mentally. but NOT Tom King's Batman. his Batman is pathetic.

Agreed. And it seems most of modern writers have no respect for the characters.

I didn’t hate everything, but you are basically right. Worst thing is it is canon.

i just can't believe he still hasn't said how or why Flashpoint Batman is there. and why he'd be helping Bane. it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. . . . the only silver lining about it being canon is that even canon can be retconned. look how Tomasi fixed the issue with there being two different Supermans (New52 and Pre-New52) he just merged them. a skilled writer can fix the damage done, even when it's a giant nitwit like Tom King.

Agreed. Maybe he doesn’t know himself or he relies on Doomsday Clock. A good writer would have given us an entire issue about Thomas. That would have given us the chance to sympathize with him more& understand his motivations. Thomas comes off as a real two dimensional character.

most definitely. i truly believe that Tom King had no real plan when he started this run. he's just been pulling things out of his ass, and hoping that it'd all come together. this is painfully apparent with Flashpoint Batman. no logic. no motivations. no character development. just throw S*** at the walls and see what sticks. ...73 issues in, and nothing is adding up. he just keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper.

Why do you assume it's Flashpoint Martha in the coffin? It makes far more sense to me it would be our Bruce's mother, Martha.

As for things not making sense because they haven't been explained yet, well, they don't make sense because they haven't been explained yet. That's not uncommon in any storytelling medium. This is one of the biggest problems I have with single issue reviews. They fault an issue for not answering every question that may be answered in a future issue. Whether you like the explanation is up to you but I think it's unfair to judge a single issue for not being every issue.

@Darkseid24: "a good writer would have given us an entire issue about Thomas." Not knowing King's plans how do you know he won't do just that? It seems clear to me we're not meant to know whether to trust Thomas or not. Given that it would be out of place to make us sympathize with him right now.

@ Batman Jones. Right, but it’s #73& nothing makes any sense. All we got was fillers& the only bad Scarecrow story I’ve ever read, so I’m not really willing to give King any chance. And in every book he writes people say „wait“& it never makes much sense in the end. Happened with HIC& with Mr. Miracle as well. Well I won’t

sympathize with Thomas anyway, since I hate his character, but I think we should have got something by now. @ myconius Agreed

i can't see why Flashpoint Batman would want to resurrect an alternate universe version of his wife. after all, that was the woman he loved. back before she became a psychopath and started wholesale murder. so (main universe) Batman will have both his parents alive from an alternate universe. both of them murderers. a big happy family reunion. sounds just like one of those family dinners from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Yeah, non of this makes any sense. If it’s not Flashpoint Martha, which I doubt it is, it makes even less sense because he has no connection with this worlds Martha. Different damn dimension. This was terrible. Again. I feel the wait and see approach in a 6 to 12 issue series, but by 73 issues at $3 to $4 a piece? No. That’s ridiculous.

wasn't Thomas Wayne mortally wounded at the end of Flashpoint? how was he even still alive for that terrible 'Button' story? and how did he survive at the end of 'The Button'?

I liked the Button but it was because Johns was involved. Left to his own dvi es, King could fuck up a wet dream.

hahahaha!! King most definitely would.

he'd have a 'shart' dream!

"a nasty hot diarrhea explosion of a mess" You're a better writer than King.

hahahaha! thanks!

It’s such a twisted story, but with a better writer it could become a real cool horror story. I mean Martha should be like the mother in Pet Cemetery in the end. The wrong King is writing this story.

the idea of both Thomas and Martha Wayne coming back to life was actually done before in Blackest Night. it's been a long time since i got rid of those comic issues. but i'm pretty sure they were resurrected by the Black Lanterns. it was a neat story, but nothing i needed to ever read again.

I need to check this out then. Can’t remember this. But what is if reviving his parents are the big change Kimg was talking about?

Please no

I bet it’s something really stupid.

Um, you do realize that Ra's al Ghul is currently the main villain of the first arc of Batman & Outsiders and will feature in the upcoming Batman vs Ra's al Ghul mini series. Moreover Tynion used him in Tec, Snyder used him in All Star, Percy in Teen Titans, Orlando in the Shadow/Batman crossover. He also showed up in Batman/ TMNT 2 and Batman Beyond and Robin vs Ra's al Ghul .King is set to use him in Batman. He gets plenty of exposure, moreso than Bane at the least and probably every villain.

But that’s just lately. Allstar is canceled since a while, Shadow/ Batman also was released like 2 years ago. Ras just gets more attention, since a month, while Bane gets constantly stories since 2016.

Ra's had gotten those stories since 2016 and he's going to get more. Bane has Conquest, Batman/TMNT 2, Gotham Resistance and a bunch under King. I also forgot to add that Ra's was also used in DC Nuclear Winter. Ra's has appeared in more stories and has been written by more writers across more books since 2016 than Bane.

Ra's was also in the Metal preludes and the core series as well.

Hes not a main villain like Bane. That’s my point. Every villain gets a small story once and a while, but mainly Bane& Joker get always the big stories.