What speaks against it is, that Martha most likely would be insane, that it would cause Bruce more pain & that it’s overall just sick& twisted. Not to mention, that Thomas isn’t his real father, but father of a Bruce from an erased timeline. This sounds like fanfiction to me.

Yeah, she most definitely would be insane. I worry she could become her Flashpoint self or something. Can't blame Thomas for trying to bring her back, though. I don't dislike the concept so far. We'll see if it becomes pure fan fic, or maybe derails due to King's usual awful writing.

Yeah agreed, but guess Thomas also doesn’t understand, what moving on means.

This entire run has seemed like bad fanfic.

Both Thomas and Tom can't let go it seems. I can't wait til this run is finally over.

I agree with you both. But who knows, maybe someone worse is taking over after King.

I have a hard time imagining that at this point. Especially some one this bad staying for this long.

Azzarello could be worse. Look at Batman Damned or The Killing Joke's bastardized animated movie. But then again, we'll see. I just hope DC won't make the same mistake and try to give someone a gigantic 100 issue run.

Tim Seeley would be the worst

King will go down as THE worst Batman writer ever IMO.

Honestly, that's probably already proven untrue.

Who’s been worse?

And I did say IMO, that makes it ok. It’s in the Geneva Conventions.

Neal Adams.

Eh He’s at least been a part and contributed to the greater Batman mythos with the Death of the Madians I believe. I may be wrong about that one but he was a part of some big stories. Art wise. I don’t consider him a writer.

i'd go as far as to say that Tom King is a far WORSE writer than Neal Adams. at least Neal didn't make Batman an incompetent boob.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XjKWgJgaZls/WX_lvjtBVxI/AAAAAAAAKbo/RfCggw_WUpUSyJM6JWpFCK1VCwgQ9flgwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO008.jpg One of many examples.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/holly-robinson-takes-down-batman-4.jpg

that page you shared from Batman Odyssey is still a million times better than the page i shared of Holly Robinson takes down Batman.

@ Nihilist Batman Damned is great so far& it’s an Elseworld. Azarello also is nowhere as bad as King. Geoff Johns would be worse. He ruined every character I care about, really everyone, so if he took over it would be a nightmare becoming real. And speaking of Holly. Does nobody care about, that she’s a psycho in Kings run?

Geoff Johns is the best writer DC has by an incredible margin.

Sure. Because he’s so talented, that’s why he erased everything about the New Gods, changed their look, erased their relationships, weakened their power level, turned them into jokes, turned Darkseid into a big joke he hasn’t recovered. It’s obvious Johns has zero respect for them. Just like he wrote Scarecrow as the total opposite of who he is. In every story since the 40ies Scarecrow hates being afraid& hates Batman, Johns wrote him as someone, who loves being afraid& who needs& likes Batman.

I sure wouldn’t call someone like Johns a great writer, who has zero respect for the character & who knows nothing about them. I prefer King over Johns every time. Not even King ruined characters like Johns did.

It’s ok to be wrong.

Agreed. Not all read the New Gods, so of course you can’t realize what a crappy writer Johns is, if you don’t know the characters. With Scarecrow however people should, since he’s more popular.

Not a New Gods guy for sure but I’ve loved pretty much everything else Johns has written. Even his Scarecrow stuff. While it may have been out of character, it was still well written. Something King has failed to do.

i have to say that Geoff Johns Batman Earth One was a real hatchet job. he butchered Batman almost as bad as King did. though not nearly as severe.

I see Earth One as much more forgivable because it’s basically an Elseworlds. So he didn’t butcher the main Batman, just an alternate version. Very different than King.

His take on Scarecrow thankfully didn’t stick& him being part of Sinestro was still kind of cool, but he was still severely out of character& unrecognizable, so Johns should never touch his character again, if he has no respect. I love the New Gods and what Johns did to them was rape, slaughter I have no other words. If he did the same with Batman, Then his entire background would be changed, he would look differently act differently, act like an idiot& would be cannon fodder in every story.

Writing characters out of character, forcing your idea on them, while not caring whether it fits their characters or not& not respecting these characters is the very definition of bad writing& Johns did this with Scarecrow & even worse with New Gods. Therefore he’s not a good writer. A good writer respects all characters& not just his favorites.

Batman Earth One wasn't so bad, but sure, it portrayed certain characters out of character. At least none of them tried to rape Bats nor was a gangsta rapper, which Azzarello, the edgelod he is, did. Riddler was pretty terrible there, though. Joe Pesci-like Penguin was great, on the other hand, I loved this take.

Comparing what he did to characters to rape and slaughter is why too far. They are fictional characters, there is no comparing OOC writing to such horrible acts. He tried to update characters that few people seemed to care about and make them popular for a new generation. New Gods have never been household names, except for maybe Darkseid. I hate Kings writing but even I don’t go as far as you did with that post.

@Nihilist It was an Elseworld& it was supposed to be for adults. Don’t think it’s edgy, since if you look at real crimes some mass murderers are doing worse stuff with their victims. Comic criminals are still nice compared to real people. You could make Joker way more terrible than he already is. @ Talon No it’s not, because that’s exactly what Johns did. He butchered them. Read more New Gods comics, then you might understand, why I’m so angry with Johns writing. And what King did to Batman

still can’t be compared to what Johns did to the New Gods. Their characters are pretty much dead, even when they are alive& that’s all thanks to Johns & his crappy writing. There was no reason at all to change everything about them.

They had a small fan base though. That’s the reason they changed things. To try to reach a broader base. He tried to make a very small subsection of the comic community linteresting to more people. They don’t compare because Batman is probably the most recognizable comic character in existence. He didn’t need to change. I’d argue that the New Gods did.

Still not comparable to rape though. Let’s be real here.

A good writer could make a great story to reach more fans. He wouldn’t need to change everything about these characters. Johns messed up big here. And you said yourself, that you don’t know much about the New Gods, so read more comics with them before saying that. As a big fan of them I say there was no reason at all to change & butcher their characters.. Johns JL & Darkseid War is an abomination. It hurts reading that crap, since it’s wrong in so many ways.

I also think every character should be treated with respect, no matter if the writer likes this character or not or if it’s a lesser known character. They all deserve to be treated with respect& done justice to their character. Johns didn’t& that’s why he’s an awful writer.

I think you’re wrong. He wrote the only version that I ever found interesting. But that’s me.

Then you make no sense. You are criticizing King for writing Batman out of character, but defend Johns for doing the same with the New Gods. The difference however is, that Batman will recover& already did in other runs, but New Gods are ruined now. Like I said read more comics with them, maybe you’ll understand my problem with Johns. As for me he should stay as far away from the New Gods& Batman characters as possible, but wait he’s going to ruin Joker as well in his 3 Joker Story.

As a fan of the New Gods, I would like to know how Geoff Johns ruined them.

Like I said, one is probably the biggest property to ever come out of comics and one is made up of characters that very few people recognize. The New Gods aren’t ruined forever either. The right writer can fix them. I’d say Vanditte, May have spelled it wrong, did more damage to them than Johns did during Godhead storyline.

@ Br‘er By erasing their entire history, turning them into weaker versions of themselves, erasing every meaningful relationship between these characters, turning them into completely different characters to the point where they are unrecognizable, changing their looks. Turning them into jokes. @ Talon So you are saying, that writers can mess up characters as long as they aren’t as popular as others? I disagree. A good writer does every character justice. And it’s not like New Gods are D

characters, they are B/ C characters & Darkseid is a major JL villain& Johns turned him into a big joke. Godhead also sucked, but not like Darkseid War or JL. They are pretty much dead. Look how bad Mister Miracle& Female Furies are. It’s just painful to read as a fan. And even JL Odyssey can’t keep up with older stories. As long as DC sticks with their stupid New52 Interpretation they will stay dead, since it’s not what these characters are.

I’m saying your definition of messing up a lesser known character is skewed. Had he done nothing they would still be obscure characters that few people care about. I though Morrison did a much worse job than Johns. Darkseid War was an extremely well received story. I loved it for the most part. It got the characters you love back out into the fore front of the DCU. If not for that, they would possibly still be languishing in obscurity. We are just.not going to agree on Johns though. At least we

Can agree that King sucks. Lol

The New Gods aren’t more popular because of Johns. Darkseid War was well received, because it’s a Batman/ hero fanboy story. The New Gods had fans before& if anything they are more popular thanks to Kings Mister Miracle. Morrison did a terrible job as well, but he didn’t humiliate Darkseid & turned him into a joke& he also didn’t erase everything about them. Johns is a crappy writer& New Gods are the best example for this. Like I said he should just stay away from them.

We will never agree on Johns. I still say he’s the best writer at DC. Even if you don’t like his New Gods, have you tried Green Lantern, JSA, Justice League, Flash, Booster Gold, I mean he’s written so many great titles.

I like the New Gods because of Jack Kirby, also I only read the last part of Darkseid War to prepare for Rebirth, so I missed on what Johns changed about them, other than baby Darkseid. Which was a good idea, completely wasted by aging him up almost immediately in Wonder Woman.

Personally wouldn't call him THE best, but certainly, he's top tier. Who could compete with him? Easily Morrison and Gaiman (even though he doesn't write anything right now), very, very maybe Snyder, Tomasi and Tynion, but still, Johns is an industry giant. He made mistakes along the way, but most in-continuity ones should be fixable.

He’s not top tier. He's a wanna be Morrison. Just like King, but King hasn’t butchered characters like Johns did. @ Br‘er In which twisted World is baby Darkseid a good idea? That’s how you ruin characters. It was a mockery of Darkseid. Not to mention, that Darkseid is a brilliant strategist& not some idiot, who runs headless into battle as what Johns portrayed him as. Making the heroes gods& Lex Darkseid only shows how little he knows about the New Gods. Lex could never contain Darkseid‘s power

since he’s only human. That was stated before ( what Johns totally ignored). Same with the Omega Beams. They aren’t just dumb lasers Johns portrayed them as, they are connected with the source& they can annihilate everyone in less than a second. Not everyone can control them, because they come with horror ( what Johns also ignored, when he put Grail in it). And they certainly can’t be stabbed out with a stupid trident.

What Johns did was ridiculously powering up the earth heroes& weakening the New Gods in every way. Same with Metron. Metron himself is one of the most brilliant characters in DC. He’s the one, who created the mother box& the moebius chair, not someone else like in Johns bad fanfiction. Not every idiot can be Metron just because he is sitting on that chair like Batman did. Batman wouldn’t be able to use the chair, since it’s technology that goes beyond his understanding. So no Johns is a crappy

writer, who only cares about characters he personally likes& who doesn’t respect other characters. Plus that he doesn’t care at all about contuinity. Guess it’s too difficult to read even one New Gods or Scarecrow comic.

Dude, that’s the whole point, no one, very few, give a damn about the New Gods. Johns at least made them interesting to a new generation. I like his take but I can’t stand Kirby’s first incarnation. They’ve been a joke for years. Hell, Darkseid tried to get Superman to make a porno with Big Barda. Mr Miracle was used as comic relief in the JL international. Morrison had Turpin contain Darkseid. They haven’t been written well in decades. Johns is widely recognized as a top writer. You’re just

Wrong in this instance

They were interesting before. Johns spit on them. They had great stories& you obviously aren’t qualified to judge them, since you admitted, that you have read zero stories with them, while I have read all stories. Walter Simonson, Starlin& Byrne all did an awesome job with them. Yeah Johns is recognized, because most readers have no clue about comics or characters these days. Johns is a crappy writer& he butchered many characters with his incompetence. Also just because you don’t like them

doesnt mean they aren’t great characters. DC rather should have killed them off for god instead of allowing Johns spitting on them.

*good

Maybe baby Darkseid wasn't a good idea but I thought it lead to a really goofy image in Dark Nights Metal of Batman carrying him around, so no regrets. Geoff Johns is definitely top tier btw. Just look at the latest issue of Doomsday Clock. The one issue I read of Darkseid War was also excellent and he didn't permanently damage anyone. I would say Female Furies is doing far more damage to the New Gods and Jack Kirby's legacy. Thank god that no other writers will ever act like it is canon.

I’ve read some New Gods stuff but not a ton. From what I read, they weren’t very interesting and no they weren’t nor have the ever been popular characters with a few exceptions. Johns has done more characterization with guys than most writers so saying he’s only popular because people don’t know any better is just disingenuous. Like you alluded too, you haven’t read the vast majority of his work so you’re not really qualified to make such a statement.

@ Talon Apart from his Flash I did& Im for sure not biased, since if I was I would bash Doomsday Clock just because Johns wrote it, but if you look at my reviews I like DDC a lot so far. Doesn’t matter though, since JL, Darkseid War& Blackest Night shows, that hes a bad writer, since he a) doesn know the characters & b) doesn’t respect them& c) is biased, since he is only willing to give his favorite characters a great story. And your popular argument makes no sense. New Gods were popular in

The 80ies/ 90ies& 2000+. Plus Scarecrow is a popular character & still Johns messed him up badly. The only good thing here is, that it didn’t stick, since he’s too popular to be messed up like that. It’s not more disingenuous than assuming characters aren’t loved or popular just because you don’t personally like them. What have you read? @Br‘er Johns did permanently damage them, since he rewrote their entire history, power level, looks in JL& Darkseid War. Even 2-3 years later Darkseid still

Struggles due to that stupid story. Female Furies suck no doubt, but they aren’t canon& therefore did less damage. And at least their looks and past weren’t completely changed unlike in Darkseid War. And that scene in Metal is one reason, why I didn’t like it. Plus I want to slap Batman for it.

i really hated that origin they slapped on Darkseid in the New52 Justice League 'Villains Month' issue. . . . . . you're really pointing your anger in the wrong direction. Batman is a fictional character and not responsible for his actions. if you want to slap someone, slap the writer. ....not literally. but you know what i mean.

Me too, even so that origin wasn’t Johns fault, but it definitely was bad. Yeah, but Batman deserves a slap for many things too lol. I also wouldn’t go so far to insult or harass the writers. While I hate most of the things Johns wrote he seems like a nice person. Just like King. But it’s very frustrating to watch, what they did to the New Gods. They were my favorite comics after Batman. Johns should just never touch the New Gods, Scarecrow or Batman characters again.

this is probably one of the best reviews you've written in a while. many excellent points.

Thank you :)

you're most very welcome! ^___^

Not a Lazarus Pit.

What else? @ Batman Jones

Nain Pit. We've never heard of it before but another review pointed out it's a Biblical reference. A Lazarus Pit can only restore the newly dead. This is something else we've yet to see in a Batman comic.

The Nain pit is just another Lazarus pit. You should have learned after HiC to stop reading too much into things.

I never liked the character of Bane. I always rgought he was pathetic and weak, The only time he is ever able to beat Batman is after others had already weakened him mentally and physically. And even then he has to juice up to do it most of the time. I do agree with you on Bat daddy not being his father. And the hugging him was not believable at all.

@Talon1load, Nain is not Lazarus. Here's a good article: A significant amendment... A Lazarus Pit is not a Nain Pit. We have no IDEA what a Nain Pit does... https://www.cbr.com/batman-lazarus-nain-pit/

Oops. Copied the wrong comment. Still, check out the article.

It’s going to be pretty much the same thing. It’s not like King has had an original idea in the last 73 issues. He may call it whatever he wants but it’s a damn Lazarus pit.

We just disagree about this whole run and that's okay. From my POV virtually every idea King has had on this run is original. But people don't have to agree about art of any sort and they really shouldn't. Good and bad aren't and can't be objective things when it comes to any sort of art. Everyone experiences art differently and that's how it should always be. I hope you enjoy the next Batman writer better. Peace. :)

I think we disagree on the definition of original. He has not done anything that has not already been done before. Other than making Batman useless. That is an original spin in the character. I guess I can see where you’re coming from when it’s framed like that.

Of course that’s not what I meant but you knew that. No hard feelings. I don’t have the time or inclination to explain myself to people that just have very different ideas about what’s original or about this run. Keep on keeping on. Peace

I agree with you Talon. I don't think all of Kings run was bad. There were some good moments. I enjoyed seeing a lighter version of Bat's at times. I loved the date night issues. And I liked the issues where Cat and Bat fought side by side. I hated the whole Gotham and Gotham girl stories. I just thought they were useless characters. I have never been a Bane fan so I'm not enjoying the current story that much.

However the fact that Catwoman will be fighting at his side in City of Bane does make it more enjoyable. The war of Jokes and Riddles was good but it could have been better I think. So this run was not all bad. I do think King could use with writing tighter stories. Shorter stories. Because lets face it some of them went on forever. He also could work on his dialogue. Add more of it and less crap.

I MEANT i AGREE WITH YOU BATMAN JONES. SORRY TALON I PUT THE WRONG NAME DOWN

i have to agree with Talon1load. King's Batman is pretty useless, and all his stories feel like bad knock-offs of ideas that were handled better by more accomplished writers. i mean how many times are he going to see Tom King have Bane break Batman's back? it's like a bad parody of Knightfall.

Lol. I was confused for a second. No worries though.

I agree with Talon& myconius. Apart from making some characters unrecognizable nothing was original. Not even the ending in Jokes& Riddles. Batman would have been a killer in many stories before, it it wasn’t for luck or other people stopping him. Thanks to King I also can’t take Bane seriously at all.

I'm curious what characters do you think were unrecognizable? And how?

Batman for the most part. If he wasn’t wearing the suit, and wasn’t referred to by name, it would be easy to think this was a different character based on how King has written him in comparison to almost EVERY other writer. No one has ever written him this weak and ineffectual before.

Holly was turned into a Psychopath& of course Batman. Nightwing acted like a total idiot, Bane also acted weird. The way Batman treated people, Thomas is out of character. Catwoman was out of character, when she went to prison. She hates being in prison. Catbat is ooc. Joker was also awfully portrayed.

I don't really agree with all of that. Bat's wasn't weak until just lately. For most of the run he was okay. And it makes sense that Bat's would lose it a little over Catwoman leaving him. It was the first time Bruce let himself truly openly feel for someone. I rather liked seeing a bit of a softer side to him. I can't say I care over much for they way the nightmare/Bane story is playing out right now.

I think right now he is being written rather weak. Too weak. As for Thomas I don't really think there has been enough written about him to get a complete picture of who he is. It is completely possible to picture him as having been confronted with the son he lost and having lost him wife it's possible he could in his grief come up with the plan of bring his family back together. Though I don't think he would have worked with Bane against his son.

Unless he thought to do so was the only way he could get Bat's to agree to his plan of bringing his wife back. As for Catwoman I don't really get the story of her being in prison. Was that story covered anywhere else? I liked how Cat and Bat were together. I love them as a couple. As for the Joker he's always changing. So I thought he was wrote okay. I liked the story where he was waiting for his invite to the wedding. Nightwing was his usual fun self. He's often a goofy idiot.

Bruce is acting like a teenage crybaby since 50 not like an adult. And no. First of all we saw nothing, that Bruce opened more up to Catwoman than he already did in other stories. Then he for example opened way more up to Natalya in the Dark Knight than he ever did to Catwoman in Kings run. King is acting like he did, but nothing like that was shown in the comics. And that’s why it feels so cheap. As for Thomas we still don’t know why he’s even here& it makes no sense, that he even considers

It's part of his charm as a character.

Bruce being his son. He‘s from an erased timeline after all. All of this sounds like King has never thought the story through,

In the prison arc There was talk about how they wrote letters to each other and how it was were he confessed his love for her. It would have been nice to have had that fleshed out but we didn't get that.

That’s a big part of the problem with Kings run. He tells you a lot happens without ever showing you. Almost the entire WoJaR was that way. I can’t stand that. Weak characterization and most of the story happening off panel is a terrible way to write comics.

True he does leave a lot out that shouldn't be left out. it would have been nice to have more clarity. It would have at least lefr the reader feel like the story was moving towards something

@ Talon Very good point. That’s one of the problems I have with King. He often just mentions all the exciting stuff, but never lets the reader experience it.

Oh well his run is almost over so I guess we will see what if anything comes out of what he left out. With any luck it will at least be more interesting then it has been.

Yeah you’re right. I just hope his big change is something good& exciting.

The Bane part of his plan was to emotionally destroy Bruce and make him more willing to stop being Batman and be his son again. Hence the line "You were defeated. Broken. Body and soul. That's behind you. In Gotham. Now, here it is time to rebuild. To show them how strong you really are. Son. My little boy. You don't have to worry anymore. About anything. Your father's got you." Notice he says to rely on his father when he says rebuild himself? He is manipulating Bruce emotionally into

thinking his whole life spent as Batman was a waste and that he could have the chance to make it all good again by having his parents back. A plan I believe Batman would not go along with, without his mental breakdown. At the end Batman says "I remember the blood, the pearls. Knowing I would never see you again. I was too... difficult. I... forsook my life. I surrendered to a vow. And now what was that worth?" And then Thomas encourages that mindset with peptalk.

(Also I still don't entirely buy that it is Thomas. I still can't get over that Hush took his spot in the gang in Batman #72's Flashback.)

But the problem with that is Bruce's craziness is not crazy at all. No one believes him, sure, but he's remained on point about Bane. So that leads me to believe that his judgment, while strained, is still very much there.

Plus, Bruce knows Thomas worked with Bane to help break him. That would further strain the relationship they have. Why not help defeat Bane with his son, reconnecting with him, and then pull the Weekend at Bernie's with Martha's corpse?

Why approach the emotional manipulation from such an antagonistic angle, unlike most emotional manipulators would?

His end goal is to have a family again, he is going about it in the stupidest way possible. So you better be right about the Hush thing or this Thomas Wayne Batman is a chump.

I think everything is quite stupid here. Bruce is a grown up man, so I don’t think emotional manipulation by a mass murderer would work here. King writes Bruce as a fragile personality, but while Bruce has issues, he never is so weak as written here. And point also is: everything Bane did to him is forced& unbelievable.

That’s why you guys are delusional, you only think Batman can be written one way. Humans are irrational in behavior, and Bruce is human it doesn’t matter what someone else thinks when it’s not genuine.

Bruce is that special kind of human that can have their back broken only for it to be healed within a few days.

I don't think he can only be written one way, but by the logic of this series' characterization of him, it still doesn't really work. But the characterization is dependant on the story King wants to tell at that moment, so no wonder it's inconsistent.

Me neither, but he shouldn’t be written out of character& that’s exactly how he’s written in Kings run. There are so many problems with this run.

So much judgment of parts of the story that just haven't been told yet. King tweeted today that an explanation of Flashpoint Batman is coming. I honestly don't get the criticism that an unexplained thing won't be explained because it hasn't been explained YET. Did I miss the news about #73 being the last issue in King's run?

It's not so much a complaint to me. It's an annoyance. It's the only reason I'm interested in this plot line and this issue's focus. So to have to wait almost 25 issues for the answer, if not more, when in the past these answers have almost always been underwhelming and lackluster, is annoying.

Fair enough. For me I tend to wait for the end of a story before judging the story. Totally fair though to turn a story off in the middle. I do that all the time and if I were hating this run that's what I'd do. I actually love the waiting because it builds anticipation and because I've enjoyed every issue so far but everyone's opinion is equally valid.

I'm not sure which answers have been lackluster though. From my perspective really nothing has been answered yet. I get the frustration over having to wait so long for the answers and I'd feel the same if I weren't digging the book but I'm honestly confused as to what's been answered.

Everything about this entire run has been lackluster and that’s being generous.

@Batman Jones. im willing to give writers time usually, but it’s been 73 issues & there are not any answers.

73 issues and we knew from the start to expect over 100. It is probably too late for rewrites as well.

If solicits are any indicator, Tom King has definitely rewrote parts of this run. Also, maybe if the story was actually properly paced then we wouldn't be complaining about how long it is. But it's paced like shit. The Knightmares arc is the epitome of that.

Yes, I for sure didn’t complain about the length of Knightfall or No Mans Land, but those stories were better written.

It's the fact that nothing else has really happened in these 73 issues. It's all one big really lackluster storyline so far. I haven't read Knightfall yet, but I can bet it didn't have fever dream arcs. I can bet there were real fights with villains and sublots that all had their conclusions along the way. And I can bet the writer didn't tell everyone it was going to all be a fight with Bane spread over 100 issues!

Knightfall was also just a big dumb 90s' story not unlike Death of Superman. Tom King's run isn't. It is philosophical, experimental, and literary. Clearly something that divides Batman fans practically down the middle. I would understand the complaints if this were the only Batman book on the shelves, but there are so many to choose from. Why can't one of them break the mold and experiment?

(Also I like Knightfall, sorry for calling it dumb.)

(Also I do get the complaints because that book happens to be called *Batman*, so it is mainly treated as the main Batman storyline, would people care nearly as much if this was being done in a book not DC's flagship title?)

I don’t think they (we) would be as angry if it weren’t the main title.

"philosophical, experimental, and literary" are not the words I'd use to describe this run. I'd go for "pretentious, poorly constructed and sophomoric."

They are the same thing really. All philosophical or literary work gets labeled pretentious by somebody.

It reminds me of something Sam Kieth's friend said in the back of I Before E. How his and Bill Messner Loebs book Epicurus was hailed as

Well-written, philosophical, thought provoking, emotional, but also amateur and sophomoric by others.

Well, I don't know if their book was that bad, but this one definitely is.

Hear, hear, Br'er

I just wanted to start my riot, when you said Knightfall is dumb lol I’ve read works of real philosophers& Kings Batman run is not philosophical. I assure you, rather pseudo philosophical. And can you blame people? Batman is one of the most important comic runs of DC, it’s canon& King clearly doesn’t know how to write these characters. He doesn’t know them, so of course fans are upset, since Batman run defines the characters. If King wanted to experiment he could have done black label.

However he clearly isn’t talented enough for writing an important run like Batman. Maybe he’s Didios lover, I can’t find another explanation, why he has so many freedoms in DC.

i'm definitely in agreement with Darkseid24 here. Batman is DC's biggest cash cow, and they handed it to someone that doesn't understand or respect the character or his mythology. he's too busy breaking the character down, to the point of not being recognizable anymore. and he never shows the slightest inkling that he'll ever build him back up. Batman is supposed to be the ideal. the peak of human performance both physically and mentally. but NOT Tom King's Batman. his Batman is pathetic.

Agreed. And it seems most of modern writers have no respect for the characters.

Him coming back from a broken back in the old comics is not realistic either.

True but it was a little more realistic than this is. At least it was magically done, Where Bat daddy fixed his mack this time.So this time would be a more natural way of healing and not a magical way. But a persons back would not heal that fast and well naturally.

Sorry back not mack

Maybe his back isn’t entirely broken in Batman just a rupture. And that’s why he’s ok.

so was this the 2nd or 3rd time Tom King has had Bane break Batman's back in this run?

I stopped counting lol Maybe it’s more like a wrestling move

there have been so many broken backs in this run, that it's ridiculous.

Agreed. And so many things are ridiculous in this run.

at least DC finally booted this goofball off their most popular titles. they were idiots for even putting him there in the first place. just like they were idiots for letting Geoff Johns write Batman Earth One. they would have been better off letting someone like David Finch write and draw Batman at the beginning of Rebirth. his Dark Knight series may not have been the most outstanding series, but it was entertaining, and didn't do anything to ruin the character.

At least the second time it’s been broken in this run and until Thomas said something, I didn’t know he’d even had it broken again. Regardless though, just had his back broken and his dad fixes it and throws him over the back of a horse? Bullshit. I just had back surgery and I guarandamntee you, that would not happen.

no definitely not! disbelief only suspends but so much. a severe Back injury either cripples or disables someone. if anyone should have their ass thrown into the Lazarus Pit, it's BRUCE with the amount of times his back has been broken in this cockamamie run.

FACT!!!!

David Finch didn’t write the Dark Knight though, it was Gregg Hurwitz& I loved the Dark Knight run. It’s a shame it was canceled& DC did Batman Eternal instead. And maybe they all get thrown in the pit ;)

Finch actually did write the very first volume of Batman the Dark Knight, before the New 52. after the New 52 relaunch, he was still co-writing the series with Paul Jenkins. i don't remember when Gregg Hurwitz took over. probably during the second story arc? definitely a shame that it should be replaced by Batman Eternal. Batman Eternal was just a shame PERIOD! xD

Yeah. Hurwitz wrote it since issue 10, starting with Cycle of violence. I think his stories were way better than the ones from Paul Jenkins, but his story where Bane& Scarecrow teamed up was kind of fun too. But the rabbit girl was so stupid on so many levels.

Batman Eternal really was. Such a disappointment. Glad this is over.

even though Finch's writing was only ok, i still enjoyed it a lot more than King's.

Same.

"Did you try thinking about the pieces presented in the comic? Y'know before complaining about answers?" "Nah, I just prefer to show up and give it my weekly 1/10 and give no credit or thought. When's the next Detective Comics? The book that has never had an arc that was a total waste."

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I was talking about one person specifically but they don't even read Detective. I just find it funny there is a Detective arc where everything was a simulation and it gets a free pass, while Knightmares is apparently the worst thing ever but has more relevance in its' book.

(@Br'er Lapin) I mean a least that detective arc didn't have that horrendous Roadunner "beep-beep" bullshit issue.

That detective arc was actually fun to read as well. And it wasn't coming off the heels of a cliffhanger. And the writing/dialogue was better.

Aw, I like Looney Tunes.

Well maybe next time Tom King will make it an approximation of Andy Serkis breaking into song. Everyone knows when Andy Serkis does it...

I guess the difference is that Klaue has personality while Thomas Wayne is a charisma vacuum.

Singing overplayed songs in a interrogation room is definitely personality. There was no reason for the song in this issue about a campfire trip, no contrast or atmosphere at all. Tom King just wanted to be dumb. That makes the most sense to me.

an* interrogation room. This post brought to you by the lack of an edit button.

Nevermind the above, I am just being a sleepy jerk. Sorry.

you've said all that you need to say, brother! spot on!!

i don't think you're wrong at all.

I didn’t hate everything, but you are basically right. Worst thing is it is canon.

i just can't believe he still hasn't said how or why Flashpoint Batman is there. and why he'd be helping Bane. it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. . . . the only silver lining about it being canon is that even canon can be retconned. look how Tomasi fixed the issue with there being two different Supermans (New52 and Pre-New52) he just merged them. a skilled writer can fix the damage done, even when it's a giant nitwit like Tom King.

Agreed. Maybe he doesn’t know himself or he relies on Doomsday Clock. A good writer would have given us an entire issue about Thomas. That would have given us the chance to sympathize with him more& understand his motivations. Thomas comes off as a real two dimensional character.

most definitely. i truly believe that Tom King had no real plan when he started this run. he's just been pulling things out of his ass, and hoping that it'd all come together. this is painfully apparent with Flashpoint Batman. no logic. no motivations. no character development. just throw S*** at the walls and see what sticks. ...73 issues in, and nothing is adding up. he just keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper.

Why do you assume it's Flashpoint Martha in the coffin? It makes far more sense to me it would be our Bruce's mother, Martha.

As for things not making sense because they haven't been explained yet, well, they don't make sense because they haven't been explained yet. That's not uncommon in any storytelling medium. This is one of the biggest problems I have with single issue reviews. They fault an issue for not answering every question that may be answered in a future issue. Whether you like the explanation is up to you but I think it's unfair to judge a single issue for not being every issue.

@Darkseid24: "a good writer would have given us an entire issue about Thomas." Not knowing King's plans how do you know he won't do just that? It seems clear to me we're not meant to know whether to trust Thomas or not. Given that it would be out of place to make us sympathize with him right now.

@ Batman Jones. Right, but it’s #73& nothing makes any sense. All we got was fillers& the only bad Scarecrow story I’ve ever read, so I’m not really willing to give King any chance. And in every book he writes people say „wait“& it never makes much sense in the end. Happened with HIC& with Mr. Miracle as well. Well I won’t

sympathize with Thomas anyway, since I hate his character, but I think we should have got something by now. @ myconius Agreed

i can't see why Flashpoint Batman would want to resurrect an alternate universe version of his wife. after all, that was the woman he loved. back before she became a psychopath and started wholesale murder. so (main universe) Batman will have both his parents alive from an alternate universe. both of them murderers. a big happy family reunion. sounds just like one of those family dinners from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Yeah, non of this makes any sense. If it’s not Flashpoint Martha, which I doubt it is, it makes even less sense because he has no connection with this worlds Martha. Different damn dimension. This was terrible. Again. I feel the wait and see approach in a 6 to 12 issue series, but by 73 issues at $3 to $4 a piece? No. That’s ridiculous.

wasn't Thomas Wayne mortally wounded at the end of Flashpoint? how was he even still alive for that terrible 'Button' story? and how did he survive at the end of 'The Button'?

I liked the Button but it was because Johns was involved. Left to his own dvi es, King could fuck up a wet dream.

hahahaha!! King most definitely would.

he'd have a 'shart' dream!

"a nasty hot diarrhea explosion of a mess" You're a better writer than King.

hahahaha! thanks!

It’s such a twisted story, but with a better writer it could become a real cool horror story. I mean Martha should be like the mother in Pet Cemetery in the end. The wrong King is writing this story.

the idea of both Thomas and Martha Wayne coming back to life was actually done before in Blackest Night. it's been a long time since i got rid of those comic issues. but i'm pretty sure they were resurrected by the Black Lanterns. it was a neat story, but nothing i needed to ever read again.

I need to check this out then. Can’t remember this. But what is if reviving his parents are the big change Kimg was talking about?

Please no

I bet it’s something really stupid.