I don’t think the dialogue was bad, especially not compared to Kings awful dialogue, but I agree about the plot progression.

I would say it's a different category of bad. King is repetitive and takes less is more to a whole new level. Lobdell tends just has a lot of odd jokes that never land and sometimes makes characters over explain.

I have only read a few issues of Red Hood& I think it was ok. Characters were in character. King wrote Nightwing like a total retard, when he was shot, while Lobdell made him sound normal, so I prefer Lobdell over King. I give the story a chance, maybe it just needs time to built up& I am also reading it because of Scarecrow. Nightwing 50 did a great job with Scarecrow.

Red Hood has a lot of pacing problems. And Lobdell makes Ric Grayson sound normal, not Dick Grayson. Because that character is basically gone. Also, Nightwing #50 was written by Ben Percy, not Lobdell.

That’s ok for me, because Dick is currently still injured, so I am fine with, if he sounds different. I know, but come on, the foundation is already there thanks to Percy, so Lobdell can’t mess it up that much. At least I hope so.# 51&52 weren’t perfect, but not bad either.

I don't mind of Dick sounds different personally… just that he has lost what makes him a compelling character, for me personally. I was excited for this series to go in a new direction since it had been going downhill fast, but it turned out the new direction was even worse than before.

I'd rather have this over more of Wyrm and the dark web, for sure.

I actually think I like this less than the Wyrm stuff (just my personal opinion), although that was really, really bad also. I think DC just needs to find a creative team that works, or get rid of the series entirely. I'm sick of seeing them constantly rebooting the series while still keeping the sam numbering, between Seeley, Humphries, Percy and Lobdell, there was very little actual quality there. This series for me, is how a lot of people feel about King's Batman.

Yeah, I'd say that Nightwing V4 has been bad since its inception.

I definitely agree.

I like this Nightwing run more than the New52 one& when Dick was a secret agent. I am glad when King is finally done with Batman, but that’s still 2 years. I hope he doesn’t mess any character up until then, because he sometimes doesn’t care much about contuinity. Penguin being married came out of nowhere in Kings story. I thought that was odd.

I actually prefer Grayson to this one. I think his whole not caring about the continuity thing is why he works better with smaller, secondary series, like Vision, Omega Men and even Mister Miracle.

I was slightly annoyed by the Penguin thing but not as much as some people, so I didn’t take off for it in my review. I thought the scene where it was introduced was really good, and it gave him motivation and some character depth. That’s just my personal opinion though, I can totally understand if you hate it.

Yeah I agree& as for the Penguin story, maybe King explains more in the next issues. I liked Heroes in Crisis #1 by King ( despite the deaths), but I didn’t like how Harley beat the Trinity in #2.

I liked Heroes 1 as well and issue 2 also disappointed me. Harley defeating the Trinity was weird for sure, but the main reason I disliked it was that it failed to make the story set up in issue 1 into anything interesting.

I found both issues to be extremely lacking. Characters just don't act properly given the circumstances.

I can respect that opinion. The out of character moments didn’t really bother me until issue two, and even then, I found problems like story and continuity errors to be more distracting so I haven’t taken off for it in my reviews.

I like Heroes in Crisis currently more than Kings Batman run, I think he can write better, if he has more time. I don‘t like it, when they are out of characters though. I can see, why people are angry with what happened to Wally, overall I don’t like when characters are killed off.

They are both pretty even for me. I've never been one to "pick a side" in the never ending battle of Tom King's Batman. I love some issues, hate others, it varies from issue to issue. I wish that they could have at least given the character deaths more emotional weight, it seems like you have to read the tie ins to feel the true emotional impact of these deaths. I do agree that Tom King needs to slow down and maybe take a monthly schedule. Some of his monthly work is truly amazing in my opinion.

I give HiC a chance, because some parts were good. I agree, but then it would be 4 years for King until he is done with Batman. I think 2 are already too much. Some of his stories are ok, but I don’t think he really understands Bruce. Like Bruce isn’t the kind of guy, who is obsessed with a girl, he is obsessed with being Batman/ protecting Gotham& still King turns him into a guy, who gets crazy because his girlfriend left.

I do agree he doesn’t really understand Batman, however I personally have never been an avid Batman fan so I don’t mind if the writer changes the character around, makes them different from before. If I was a Batman fan I would probably hate this series a lot more.

as an avid Batman fan, i must say that for the first year under Tom King's pen i was utterly in hell. . . . but over time, i've come to look at it as a parody and laugh at the folly of it all. ...these days neither Batman nor Detective have been very good, so i've been soothing my craving for good Batman stories with lots of back issues. various periods and writers.

Batman are my favorite comics lol King is ok up until now, there were worse writers like when Snyder made Gordon Batman, I hated that story. It was just really bad. Or Geoff Johns just can’t write certain characters. He messed up the New Gods in Darkseid War& also writes certain characters totally out of character like Scarecrow in Blackest Night for example. Doomsday Clock is great so far though. Therefore I still can live with King up until now, but I think it’s time for a new Batman writer.

i'll definitely second that notion that it's time for a new writer on Batman. ...i'll 100% agree that Robo-Gordon Batman was a terrible idea. i cannot believe it went on as long as it did. ..yeah i felt the handling of the New Gods in Darkseid War was not very good at all. ...i'll have to dip into Doomsday Clock again. the first few issues i'd read felt very fan fiction'y to me. but i'll eventually give it another shot. did they ever give a reason as to why the Comedian was saved?

I think it's still unclear at the moment.

I liked Superheavy…. I can understand that you don't like it however. The last issue of Doomsday Clock was pretty amazing in my opinion, when Dr. Manhattan finally showed up.

Also… Jeff Lemire and Andrea Sorrentino should be the new creative team for Batman. Just my opinion.

Yeah I also think Johns did a good job with Doomsday Clock do far. Yes it was they thought Dr Manhatten would listen more because of her, because they thought he spared her because she was pregnant back then, but they were wrong.

I want Manning for Batman or wish Doug Moench would return.

Good choices! I would like both of those!

Doug Moench has a soft spot in my heart because of Moon Knight, not Batman.

YES! Moon Knight is one of my all time favorite characters. I cannot appreciate Doug Moench enough for creating him. I absolutely love his Batman run though, its one of my favorite runs on the character. However, I haven’t read too many Batman comics.

Never read Moon Knight. I love his Batman stories.

ohhaimark - that Legends of the Dark Knight series i was just mentioning actually has a story called ‘Conspiracy’ by Doug Moench with art by JH Williams III. (issues #86, 87 & 88) it’s a pretty gnarly story. gets very intense at parts.

I’m going to have to read that. I love Moench and JH Williams III. His work on Overture was mind blowing.

Yes it his stories from the 80ies were great too. I didn’t read a story by Doug Moencg I haven’t liked.

He’s an amazing writer. His run on Moon Knight with Sienkiewicz is one of my all time favorite comic book runs and proved them to be one of my favorite creative teams.

i'll have to give Overture a looksee!

Are you a Sandman fan? It is a Sandman prequel, however if you have not read any other Sandman comics or don’t like them I would not recommend. If you have and you do, read that comic!

you know, i've never read any of the Sandman series before. it just looked like a huge task to undertake. is the first volume pretty well self contained?

Preludes and Nocturnes. Yes, it is. I personally love Sandman comics, so Overture was a great prequel, just not one anyone who hasn't read the series will understand.

ah! so if i ever do decide to, i’d better skip ‘overture’ and start with ‘preludes and nocturnes’. . . . . YourGreenMuse i just realized we’re flooding your inbox with all these notifications. i’m very sorry.

Yeah, whoops. Sorry. And yeah, myconius, just do that if you ever decide to start reading.

I agree about Scarecrow, reading the Solicitations it seems, that he takes action later, since he is still in Nightwing 56( he is on the cover) Issue 50 started great, when it comes to Scarecrow, so I hope the new writers don’t mess it up. I also think the fake Nightwing is pointless& I hope Scarecrow wont be overshadowed by him. Would be a stupid idea. I hope Scarecrow kills the wannabes& then his conflict with the real Nightwing is addressed.

Seriously! Issue #50 certainly did have a great Scarecrow, however I am concerned for how Lodbell handles him… he has a pretty poor track record in my opinion. I really hope they drop Detective Nightwing soon. I'm actually not super opposed to the idea of having this new status quo for Nightwing, it's just that they've been handling it terribly.

this all sounds awful. i don't think i've ever read a Lobdell comic that i actually liked.

I liked some early issues of the Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth. Other than that, I don't think so.

i don't hate his writing as i've heard some folks do. but i've never read one of his comics and was like- "WOW! that was terrific!" or even "that was a fun ride."

I think Red Hood was ok by Lobdell. His writing is better than Kings. What annoys me are the new Nightwinfs. Just Scarecrow would have been better.

I haven't read many Lobdell issues, but I personally found Red Hood #25 to be terrific. I agree just Scarecrow would be better. This is entirely a personal thing… don't go hating on me or anything, but I personally think King has a better track record with me than Lobdell.

i'll give the Red Hood series i try next time there's a DC sale on comixology. they usually have a really good sales come the holidays.

Yeah, go for the Rebirth, not the New 52 series though, I read the first volume of the New 52 series, and it is terrible.

hahaha! thanks. i'll definitely skip the new52 one and go right for the Rebirth then.

It's good because the Rebirth requires no further reading, just a general understanding of it's three main characters. I liked it up until they started doing the whole "Red Hood: Outlaw" thing. It loses the fun of the previous issues and gets rid of its most compelling characters.

I‘ve read Red Hood, when he shot Penguin in the head& the future stories. I thought that story was good. With King I don’t know, I think he is an ok writer, could be worse, but his stories always lacks something that makes them really good for me. The new Solicitations for Nightwing #54& 55 sound fun. Seems Scarecrow takes action there.

Yeah the story arc before this whole Red Hood Outlaw nonsense was actually really good. I personally find KIng to be a talented writer who sometimes struggles with putting his unique style to good use. But I can totally understand how you say his stories lack something that makes them good for you. I often feel the same way about Donny Cates, even though everybody else loves his work. I’ll give those issues a chance, but I don’t think I’ve liked an issue of this series so far.

It’s totally fine, if you like Kings writing. I liked some stories of him, but I didn’t read one I really loved. I keep giving him a chance though. I think despite Penguins marriage coming out of nowhere it still can be a good story.

Yeah, there is supposedly going to be a team up between the two. To try to defeat Bane maybe? I'm not crazy about the idea, but it could be good.

Yes I agree. I am still wondering why Thomas Wayne is involved. He isn’t even in the timeline. Or it’s someone else.

Also, wasn't Mitch supposed to illustrate the Penguin issue? Or am I just confused. I enjoy Mikel Janin's art but I think Mitch works way better with Tom King's writing.

very good point Darkseid24. there's no logical reason as to HOW or WHY Flashpoint Thomas Wayne would be working with Bane against his own son. that whole idea is just silly.

I’ll wait to see how the Thomas Wayne thing plays out... Gotham Girl is one that really confuses me. Why would she work alongside Psycho Pirate who did all those cruel things to her in I Am Gotham.

either one of the two. or even Skeets for that matter. it's just a plot twist for the sake of a plot twist. logic be damned.

That’s true. It could lead to some interesting stuff....maybe. I’ll be open minded.

I can just picture, “Skeets vs. Batman!” That should be a... unique story arc to say the least.

I actually always thought, that Thomas Wayne& Gotham Girl, Bane etc. weren’t really there, but the pic was just a flashback for everything bad, that happened to Bruce during Kings run. But since Thomas also was in the Penguin story King seems to be serious with the story idea.