Wow I'm not surprised you are absolutely right about Nick Lowe. Its not old news people should keep calling out how they are tarnishing Spidey still to this very day. Kudos to you for still sticking with ASM. I dropped it after #63 declaring ASM dead for me lol

I stopped buying it during Wells' run. I'm only following it via review copies. Some of the recent issues I couldn't even finish reading. It's a shadow of what it used to be.

Gabe is weird (and Sus) but being one of the few reviewers that isn't a shill and just hands out perfect scores like candy at Halloween doesn't make his reviews "weird" The amount of perfect scores being given out these days is what is weird! Also - Gabe is SUS! Take the guy below - 451 reviews and his average score is a 9.6/10! That means if he gives a book a 9.5/10 it is below average for him! I get that he is a fan (which is awesome) but is that being a critic?

I get what you mean. I hand 10s easily too I guess but thats because I only review things that I liked (unless something annoys me deeply so i feel the need to make a bad review) Even then I think his (Gabe Hernandez) reasonings to give bad reviews are weird. He criticizes dialogue and suporting characters a lot which I don't understand for example. I agree its great to have critics with a more "severe" view tho.

Pumping 10s is just as frustrating as people who tank scores with 1s but I think it's the random inconsistency from Gabe that people have a problem with. He's becoming the Armand White of comics reviews. Everything good is bad, things that are objectively bad aren't seen as poor then every once in a while he throws a curveball and rates a good book fairly. What I don't agree with is to have someone simply to have a harsher view. You don't have to fill that role just to prove a point.

Gabe is sort of a joke. I don't think his reviews are adding anything, because I don't think he's taken seriously.

I agree that both extremes are kind of irrational, but the problem is that Gabe Hernandez reasonings for not liking a comic book aren't fair at least. I read the entire review, and it just comes off as nitpicky. Art is subjective, and there are books that I like but other people don't. It's the same thing other way. But at least make the reasoning more "objective" or "fair" if that makes sense @WeirdSciencejim

everyone's reasoning is their reasoning and different people go into a comic with different backgrounds, likes, pet peeves, etc. It's gabe's opinion and you all seem to check out Gabe's reviews so you know what his reviews are like - the idea that a person thinks it's odd that he takes into account dialogue and side characters is odd in and of itself to me - there are sites that give percentage score to the letterer.

Also, don't discount the fact that there is a site that reviewed this issue that tells their writers they can't go under an 8/10 and if they do, they have to make it up with another review all to keep the free/early review copies. You do notice that as we get further past Wednesday morning, a lot of the overall scores go down a bit. It's also funny that everyone attacks Gabe (which he 100% loves btw) and yet there is a site that pumps out A.I. written reviews each week & gets no flack!

I've always said comic book criticism is terrible as a whole. Gabe's just a rather loud example as to why.

that's your opinion and 100% biased -something i am sure you would accuse Gabe of!

All opinions are biased. There's really no need to defend Gabe here, idk why you've decided to do that now. Comic book critics are a joke, but that doesn't mean we can't laugh at Gabe specifically. You said he likes it anyhow.

why i defend him? He reviews things on my sites! I have always had an open door policy for anyone who wants to write reviews and even if i don't agree with a lot of Gabe's scores, they are his and there are no ads or whatever so there is zero reason to make scores lower or higher . And as far as comic book critics being a joke - a lot are now, but that wasn't always the case - I stopped reviewing books after 3000+ written reviews because you put the effort in and get shit on anyway

and a lot of user reviewers are a joke as well - there are good and bad reviewers in both sections - most people don't give a shit about comic reviews anyway and most sites just gave up doing it because it wasn't worth it to them.

This is just weirdly defensive in a way that you haven't been in the past, from my recollection. I'm basically asking: what's changed? If you put an opinion out there you have to expect a reaction, good or bad. On the other side of things, consumers have to find a critic that most represents them, so that their reviews might actually be a determining factor in whether they ought to consume something. Gabe doesn't seem useful in that regard to me, or to a lot of people here, so we write him off.

this is the first time I've really commented on it! I joke around and call him "Sus Gabe" and on a podcast we do i have a "Sus Gabe's Sus Take of the Week" but when 99.9% of comic reviewers give high scores with little to no reasoning everyone is ok with it - there is even a site that obviously has used AI to write their reviews for months now - and nobody says a word, but because Gabe's score's are lower, he is the guy people crap on.

most people would look at all this as a good thing (like a clickbaity way to drive more traffic to the site) but i never cared about clicks or views, i just like letting people review comics. To be honest, though, the past year or so since Gabe started reviewing stuff, the traffic has gone through the roof so somebody is interested

I trust Gabe more than any other reviewer. I’d love to see this much flack for a hack like geek dad. Dude gives 10’s to anything. You can shit on a plate and as long as he gets his comps he will give you a 10. Go after shills like that. Not someone who will give an honest score whether you like the score or not.

Damn straight.

Gabe has singled handledly reduced the critic score overall to an 8.5. Take away his reviews, it'll sit closer to 9. There are people on here that only read 9 scores and above. Ludicrous though that may be, he's stopping people from reading this. He clearly doesn't dig the run and yet continues on this path of disdain. As his colleague implies, he is suspect indeed. But we're shills, don't you know?

All you have to do is look at the difference between ASM and USM. One is holding pretty steady in it's readership and scores whereas ASM is tanking in reviews and scores every release. If shilling for a book is reading the things that I actually like and rating it accordingly, then I don't know what being objective is.

Apparently Gabe Hernandez tends to grade things lower than usual is because he likes to compare everything to Watchmen as that's a 10/10. So this comes off as a 6/10. Again, I don't know if it's true. but that's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that reasoning?

Personally I disagree with that. you should judge every book by its own merits and not comparing it to other books. I think The Dark Knight is a personal masterpiece and is the greatest superhero film of all time. But I wouldn't say Avengers 3/4 is a "6/10" because it pales in comparison to TDK. That's just unfair and not correct. We should judge a book based on plot, pacing, art, action, characters, and dialogue. That's my Ted Talk

Basing judgement of one thing on another can be useful but when the two things you are comparing have nothing in common or you are letting your personal biases make criticism that would otherwise not be there, you have a huge problem. Comparing Spider-Man to Watchmen is a waste of time. Comparing most things to Watchmen was a waste of time until whenever Doomsday Clock started because there wasn't really any meaningful comparative story to it.

That's like taking Van Gogh's Starry Night and comparing it to nearly anything in comics. They aren't depicting the same thing. They are both art but they aren't trying to convey the same message. It comes off as disingenuous. It's not giving a fair shake to whatever you are holding it up against because of preconceived ideas that nothing can top whatever you liked previously.

I'm seconding Hex. I think that a lot of Spiderman could be on the same level as Watchmen while doing something very different. By the way, I find the notion that Watchmen or whatever comics really perfected the art form to be really disrespectful and narrow-minded, those are not the only ways to do comics.

Absolutely. Comics that are "perfect" or timeless classics, however you want to frame it, 10/10 comics are not all the same. Even if you used the same measure to compare Batman: Year One and Kingdom Come, two arguably "perfect" series, you're not giving the respect each deserves which is to view them on their own merit. These weren't written with the same ideas in mind. Comics themselves have evolved past a lot of old storytelling conventions and expanded genres not even approached in the 80s.

when i look at the user reviews I see way more people saying Gabe is wrong than actually just doing their own review saying what they like/don't like about it. I also see people discounting what is actually just one person's opinion and for some reason being upset about the book's overall score. The odd thing is that 99.9% of the writers at Marvel & DC care less about scores than everyone here and the worst you get is writers reaching out to discuss a review in a more sensible and respectful way

If you've seen any of my previous reviews, I generally do try to go pretty in depth. I know and likely everyone here knows that creators really don't give two craps about what people have to say here. That doesn't discount those voices here or uplift those on the Weird Science site simply because it makes money and we don't. The creators and the publishers care about sales but when a reviewer is giving unfavorable reviews seemingly to be against the grain for whatever reason that person may have

it can turn off a potential reader for no reason. I'm not saying to be a shill. As I said in my review, I don't support pumping up books for the sake of it but tanking is just as much of a problem. People consuming media generally look to critics more than whatever the average userbase is. They have pull. When the critics reviews don't align with the userbase there is usually a reason. Gabe can have his reasons but that doesn't make them objectively correct. He just comes off as a curmudgeon.

I'm just a guy who likes comics. Like Gabe, I want to see Spider-Man do Spider-Man things. But just because Spider-Man isn't in it beating up the bad guys every issue doesn't discount the book from being good. My opinion is subjective. His is as well. His review is up on this site, people will see it lending itself to criticism. Not everything has to be bombastic and what people have across the board enjoyed about this series is that it takes the small world building moments and highlights them.

Could you explain more how it will ruffle conservatives readers

Hello Daspida. Hope you are well my friend. Did you read it? All of Commander Star's (who is depicted as an antagonist) dialogue is a summation of American Republican rhetoric. Chip is clearly taking a shot at right wingers that espouse the beliefs Star is stating. I'm from Scotland, so I have no horse in the race as it pertains to American politics. I don't mind its inclusion at all. However, I often see comments on here from people who don't believe politics belong in comics.

*I now see you have read it

Few conservatives would be ruffled by this. This is written by someone who has very likely never met one and just believes the boogeyman they created about conservatives on twitter. Left wing bubble. Right wing bubble. It’s all a fraud.

it could have been done with a tiny bit of subtlety - it felt more like a parody which might have been intentional but who knows - Zdarsky isn't a very serious guy overall (and he is Canadian to boot!) I think it will throw people out of the issue no matter what side they are on because it is so obvious who he is trying to upset.

It was so on the nose it made me laugh.

Problem is, like you said, it will likely upset a bunch of fans. The one thing I thought today though is that (and this has nothing to do with my own political stance as I avoid politics for the most part) if zdarsky did the same thing but was "on the nose" about the opposite side of the aisle, he would likely be told he couldn't do it or worse. would have been fired and blacklisted.

Absolutely. To be clear, I'm more left leaning myself. However, there is an absolute double standard at the moment. Particularly in America. The world is becoming so much more 'you can't say this' and 'you can't say that'. If we're really going down that road, you'd think both sides would be held accountable. The balance of that in America is particularly unusual.

I think the idea that there's a leftward bent towards censorship is wild when you look at, well, anything happening in our media. The idea that you just can't say offensive stuff or can't hold certain views is societal gaslighting. Americans just elected the antithesis to this idea. I'm sick of this notion that it's the left that needs to simmer down and be more docile while the right continues to radicalize and become more openly derogatory and bigoted.

I completely agree with you. My point is that no one will be happy unless writers try to be more apolitical. In injecting their own personal beliefs into established characters, they are legitimately impacting their potential reading base.

Having integrity is actually dangerous. Mainstream comics are believed to be a dwindling medium. Leftist writers are totally playing with fire in the current political climate. A lot of right wingers simply cannot handle being called out via comics or media in general. That last season of The Boys contained so much spot on social commentary that the conservatives that once loved the show, turned on it like a bunch of children. The kind of people that believe Homlander 'is right'.

The problem is that art is inherently political. Comics, especially so. There will never *be* an apolitical comic. There was never a time where comics have been apolitical. Superman was a champion of the oppressed, Captain America punched Hitler. Superhero comics specifically could easily turn into strongman, fascist propaganda in an attempt to keep things "apolitical". I'd rather not have that.

The fact that it took the chuds that long to figure out that they were the ones being satirized speaks to their media literacy and overall shouldn't welcome their ideas when most of them just want sexy women, no POC or LGBTQ characters so they can feel comfortable. They don't contribute to the comics medium. Most of them don't even buy or read the comics they rail against. They have people on YouTube or Reddit tell them how to feel. Alienating the people trying to alienating others isn't bad.

Gabe Hernandez strikes again. Love your review mate. The negativity with this issue is bizarre. This is one of the better books Marvel is releasing currently.

Thank you!!!!!! This book and Ultimate Spider-man are so good!

Vive la Gabe! Not a fan of the Ultimates myself - i still don't think the book is well setup and a year into this Universe, this book still always feels so random with each issue - Hank and Janet are upset they are considered terrorists while the new Hawkeye commits terrorism, Thor and Sif have hardly done a thing, Tony being dead should feel big but it doesn't, and even something small like She Hulks hand meant nothing - a lot of people like it, I am just not one of them.

I think the idea is to show a team that has too much issues and difficult to work together, and eventually the must learn how to

Maybe that's part of my problem - after 7 issues (and thus 7 months in-universe) we are still guessing at the idea of what and why of what's going on

Maybe it's a slow burn, be patience

only 1 critical review and your 1 user review - that usually spells big trouble, especially for a book that just started a new run

Deviant? I don't know who you are. ;)

I have told Gabe that he is done reviewing this book because of this SuS Score! I will review it from now on and my score will be way lower!!!

This has made my morning. Hehe. Nice to meet you gentleman. I have been on a bit of a silly tirade on here, in truth - for my own amusement only. Hope you are both well!

just make sure you call Gabe "sus" at least twice a day!

Only my friends and enemies are allowed to call me "Sus"

I wanted to think the same, but since this story takes place 20 years in the future, I am still worried about how King will handle Wonder Woman

Funny to me how a low score isnt valid, or objective but a high score? That's acceptable and objective amirite?

oh, no, don't get me wrong, I don't mean to criticize the fact that there are bad grades, everyone is free to comment, but there is also no denying the fact that an important part of the spiderman fandom is quite toxic and sometimes they have somewhat strange, repetitive, or bad opinions or arguments

Honestly, I'm glad you enjoyed it @justonemore. I dont think we should ostracize or really criticize people for liking issues we dont like and vice versa

It was prolly me just making a snap judgement then. I'm simply sick of everyone claiming something is "review bombed" when lots of ppl express dislike for something, but ignore that the perfect scores things get are review bombing in the opposite direction. It happens on games and movies too, just something that grinds my gears. I apologize if I took it wrong.

there is always going to be toxic reactions (you could say both good and bad even) - the way to combat it is just to give your honest opinion and give reasons in your reviews of why you like or dislike something. Most toxic responses are vague, over-the-top statements with lots of exclamation points

I have felt this for a while. Dick Grayson is my favorite character, but he needs to struggle a bit and the overall story needs to get some forward momentum

Look at you!

I’m a big boy now!

put on your big boy reviewing pants

I don't know what it is about Taylor but I find his books awfully predictable and boring, I suppose his humor not connecting with me plays a part into it as well

I think the hero line is that Bruce would want dick to keep a low profile when he isn’t in costume as it goes with this situation. And, I fully expect that Alfred left the money to Dick because of what was going on in the Bat-Family the last year, (he updates the will each year he says), knowing that Dick would distribute it out to everyone when appropriate

Yeah, the humor is super cringe and he insists with it, he doesn't let up.

And that was another Alfred mistake, as if being Dick was fair enough to watch for others besides Damian and Barbara. PLEASE

I'll be honest, if they hadn't overrated this number so much, I would have completely passed it by. Although it was going to be great. But is not.

Bruce managed to make a fool of himself before while not in costume whenever the situation needed him to act. In a Clark Kent-stumbling-on-to-save-people kind of way. So the whole line would make sense if Bruce would be the type of hero who cares so much about his identity that he would turn a blind eye to injustice. But that's not who Bruce Wayne is, regardless of Taylor trying to send that message because he's obsessed with hating billionaires.

And as a Jason fan I know for a fact that Alfred would never leave him like that. He always understood Jason maybe more than anyone else, I don't buy the whole leaving everything to Dick and leaving Jason in the wind, even if Dick would take care of him. He wouldn't be that impersonal with someone who was like a son to him. There's a pattern here already, Taylor tries to diminish the well constructed Batfamily relationships between other characters just to make us feel like Nightwing in special.

The bat family has been a mess for years! Well constructed? Damian is a killer again, Batman almost beat Jason to death for what he did to the Penguin, They thought Tim Drake was dead and he came back and split! Even Barbara called them all out in that awful Castelucci Batman #50! In the last couple of weeks even - Damian is back with Talia and Jason looks like he killed a man! Give the book a chance! It’s one issue and you are writing it off as Tom Taylor destroying the Bat Family!

As an aside, we have no idea what he left the rest of the family either

The relationships are well constructed, yes. Damian was never a saint to begin with, honestly I think he's been too restrained for a long time, even though I liked most of what Tomasi's done with him and I didn't like the direction DC took him in these last years, it's really not a huge stretch for a kid who's been indoctrinated that the world is his to rule. Batman didn't beat Jason to death, yeah he gave him a rough fight, but it's not like that's the first time that happened.

I can see you're a Taylor fan because you're way too defensive for this book. I should say, I loved his Injustice, he basically got me back into comics with his Injustice but ever since then his writing has gotten worse and worse to the point I'm wondering why I'm even trying. Cringey humor, endless rants about billionaires and capitalism, doesn't give one shit about previous character relationships in a very Bendis-like kind of way, way too many cheesy moments.

He does write action pretty well, I'll give him that. Btw, are you the guy from Weird Science DC Comics?

So you think that since rebirth, the barn family has been strong? And I said ALMOST beat him to death... and now he’s killed a Joker and a guy last week! Batman won’t even work or talk with Jason because he said he’s a killer!

That was Bat Family obviously

He will work and talk with him in the next issues, he always does eventually, regardless of their ideological differences. He hates that Jason throws in his face all his shortcomings and stand for a lot of things Bruce despises but at the end of the day he's still his son, the son he failed and he'll always try to make up for it in the end.

I think that overall the Batfamily has some strong relationships forged in time. The relationship between Alfred and Jason is a solid one, it was before Rebirth and it's the same after. I think that Taylor dismissed that with this thing.

I know he will, but that’s the Bat Family right now. Since Tom King barely acknowledged them, Ric Grayson couldn’t remember them, etc, they ave been in disarray and hopefully, they come together in all the books. Maybe this is Alfred’s move to get Dock to bring them together like he does. I don’t know. Again, it’s one issue and we don’t know what the rest got... I asked Tom Taylor and we’ll see what he says

After 2 years of ric grayson, I was happy to get this issue as a reset of all that shit and now Dick can move forward

Wooow stop, did I kill a Joker in canon? does that influence Urban Legends? because I didn't see that mentioned. Can you be kind enough to explain please @WeirdScienceJim

Jokingly though, Dick deserves it because he is the best Robin and my favorite character in comics

sorry Jason kill Joker?

That I understand, especially of you're a huge Grayson fan, these last few years have been torture. Still, in the process of trying to uplift fans like you, Taylor diminished the relationship between Alfred and the Batfamily and he diminished Bruce's character. And I pretty much hated that. I didn't particularly enjoyed the rest of the issue either. You've rated this with 10, I can see you're a fan, cool. I'm not, I'm sorry to say. Other than the art I didn't enjoy anything out of it.

hahaha and I'll tell you something @WeirdScienceJim is valid, it's your tastes. What is not valid are the neurotics who complain and insult that you do not have the same tastes. There are many of those.

@Winterisnear I suspected the same, nobody has clarified if the Bats know that it was a blank shot, it was not even an actual assassination attempt. Jason didn't deserve such treatment, but it was a good drama without a doubt.

I think that it was supposed to be an actual assassination attempt but DC wouldn't want to lose one of the best villains they have and so Lobdell had to come with that crappy and convoluted "explanation" with rubber bullets or whatever. I think that at the time Jason was angru enough to kill Penguin then and there but the again, that's a DC problem, they don't have the guts to kill major villains.

We already know how DC takes care of its villains, that is why the Joker is untouchable. So they as he does not have the slightest idea of how to carry the continuity. That is why I am not going to give this book or another undeserving book a chance, with the obvious exception of what involves Jason Todd. It would take a good story for me to invest in that DC comic, they really disappointed me.

Jason didn't kill the Penguin - Batman called him a Killer in urban legends and i don't think he means from before since they worked a lot of that out since

Tom Taylor did say the whole family recieved the same amount at the will reading, including Julia. Who knows if that's actually true or if we will ever see that at all!

@Winterisnear they already dealt with what he did with the Penguin and Oswald didn't die. The reason I said it's the Joker is Batman let Jason back into Gotham (with rubber bulllet rule), but now won't work or talk to him because he is a "killer". The timeline is still a bit wonly but it seems like it can only be the Joker. Zdarsky's Urban Legends story feels like a side-sequal to Three Jokers the way Babs is talking to him too. Who knows with Infinite Frontier timeline stuff though

to find out, maybe Chip will clear it up in his penultimate issue, we'll have to wait. It's great that Chip asked the story of Hood, I think after Lost Days (I love it) and Three Jokers is the best thing that has been written about Red Hood, obviously it is not perfect but it is very good, there are many repetitions in the dynamics Buce and Jason, you know some Remake.

yep - I would like a lot of things cleared up going forward with an open timeline, there may be some changes

Woow friend, you got going the polemic, what an interesting post you do.

It wasn't on purpose, I'm just tired of people who praise everything Taylor writes when in reality he really isn't that good.

I feel the same about Tom, but the one with the last name King!

Kind of agree with you there. There are a lot of King books that people just love and I find them very, very underrated. Including some that are pretty much universally acclaimed, like Mr. Miracle, which I for one didn't find that good. Still, every once in a while he manages to surprise me so I have to give him some credit. But one thing I like about King and I don't about Taylor is that he seems to try to elevate comics to another level while Taylor just revels in cringy internet humor level.

IMO, King tries to elevate HIMSELF to another lever and at this point, his books are all following a tired formula of mysteries without clues that end in ambiguous endings. It's actually funny because I like Tom Taylor because he writes comics to write comics while guys like King (IMO again) end up being embarased to just write a fun comic. Like they want to prove they are above the medium when they are at fancy dinner parties

But he has a ton of fans!

Agree again, he is very infatuated with himself and has a pretentious style that most of the times, if you strip it of his tired artifices, the essence of his writing is pretty thin. And yes, the payoff for a lot of his mysteries is rarely worthy. He's trying to be the next Alan Moore and in his mind he probably he thinks he is but that's not going to happen. And yes, his fans are very aggressive and condescending because he makes them feel smart even though most of the times they're not lol.

But that's something I think King and Taylor fans have in common. If you look at the reviews here, there's a guy who thinks he "triggers the Lobdell fans" and there's another one that joins him in his disturbed fantasy. And it's not my first dance with Taylor fans, something I've noticed it happens with King fans too. After all, the two Toms are pretty good friends at least on social media, why should their fans not be annoyingly similar?

Present company excluded of course, it doesn't matter that you obviously loved this and I hated it from the bottom of my heart, I have no problem with someone having different tastes than mine, as long as he has his arguments and he's not being insufferable about it.

Lol, I just noticed I said King's books are underrated, obviously I meant overrated. :))

For me I can stomach Tatlor better than I can Kings self applauding style. He succeeded in keeping me from buying nearly 85 issues of my favourite character. That's some seriously bad storytelling. Taylor's at least has something of a feel for Dick Grayson.

I still maintain that despite their financial woes DC can get quality writers on the flagship books and get readers excited again. But you must start thinking vision and stories not gimmicks and constant resets.

Having said that I've read some previews of what Marvel is planning with Reborn 2 and they may be about to step on a rake themselves.

@merlyn LOL! erase that whole conversation then - We Agree!

gimmicks are the worst, but resets can work--- if you don't keep messing up and needing to reset over and over! DC keeps messing up, so I have my fingers crossed

@merlyn you are do right that King tries to be Alan Moore but comes out as Alan Less!

@Weird Science Jim - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Yeah! MUCH less!

I was hoping that would get a chuckle!

@Weird Science Jim - more than just a chuckle, good sir. ...that earned a well deserved Belly Laugh!! 😂😂😂

Nice review! I agree so much with the idea of wanting the writer to play fair. It happened in Heroes in Crisis as well...King doesn't let you play along and then just drops info in your lap and when you go back expecting the Sixth Sense moments that you missed, they just aren't there! Plus, i may have to "borrow" that subtext line, so funny!!!

Just be sure to give me credit. It’s hard to think up original snarks. I am very proud of that one.

Also hit the like button. It does wonders for my vanity.

i can't say i blame Romita or Janson. it must have been agonizingly painful to illustrate this cancer incarnate trash fire of a script.

I think the art is still the best in this.

May as well be. But personally I think it's still anything but good. Absolutely awful comic.

King has wasted every opportunity to explore the interesting characters in his run. He thinks it is deep to reiterate that Batman and Catwoman are soulmates. Gotham Girl? Not explored. Thomas Wayne Batman from a different universe? Not explained. Bane? Glossed over.

Yeah, absolutely. Shame, since he set up Gotham Girl as a key figure in the run, and then she appeared pretty much only in a terrible crossover with Flash, made out of literal scraps and leftovers. What a waste. Thomas, Bane and Selina as well weren't explored at all. Seems like bloody Kite Man has more depth than all of them combined at this point.

all excellent points Superheroes for Hire. i'm pretty sure Tom King had no idea what he was doing when he was put on Batman. he just rode the wave of hype and praise and let it go to his head. DC being the fools they are stuck him on the book another 50 issues. a decision that would bite them in the ass. at least someone was smart enough to cut this mess short. pity they couldn't do it sooner and save us this current arc. the series should have just ended with Batman kicking a tree.

I am not surprised Kite Man is better written, since Kite Man is a D villain therefore not explored much. King however didn’t know anything about Bruce, Selina, Bane etc.

Imo, the extreme praise he got when the Bat/Cat stuff hit changed the overall direction and then became a crutch when things went bad and then the downfall when the wedding didn't happen. If this issue doesn't show there was never an overall story plan, i don't know what does. Worst part, most of the stuff people hate were always there, it was just new and we were not used to it or annoyed by it yet.

He writes in such an ambiguous, let the reader fill in the blanks way that it's silly to think most of these things were a plan. It would be nice if any of yhese things were something you would go back and see clues that we just didn't recognize at the time, but sadly, that's not the case

i don't know how people praised this run so much in the beginning. i thought it was terrible after the very first issue. ... "i'M gOnNa HaVe To DiE iN oRdEr To SaVe EvErYoNe On ThE pLaNe. wOuLd MoThEr AnD FaThEr Be PrOuD?"

Weird Science Jim - it's so true that he used the Bat/Cat thing as a crutch after his run started nosediving. he's such a boob that he couldn't even get that right though. it's only fitting that this run end in such a disaster.

Lol...look back atvyhe first issue snd when Gotham Girl and Gotham save the plane, Batman says "Clark?" Even though Superman was dead at that point! I liked the first arc, actually, but have you ever seen a writer be so careless with their own character (Gotham Girl) or actuall seem to write them OOC? She is one of the few original things he did and has just messes her up!!!

Forgive my phone typing skills!

no worries. my typing skills are bollocks, and i'm using a keyboard. - Now that you mention it, that always did strike me as weird that Batman said "Clark?" even though NewFiftyTwoperman had just died. - he really is so inconsistent with his writing. he can't even decide if he wants Batman to be a blubbering depressed crybaby, or an omniscient OP badass. King still never even gave a proper explanation as to Gotham Girl & Bro's powers, or Bane's motivation for going after Batman the way he is.

*Tom King's Bane* - "I WILL BREAK THE BATMAN!!!" . . . *Fans* - "Why is that, exactly?" . . . *Tom King's Bane* - "BECAUSE CHUCK DIXON'S KNIGHTFALL IS VERY POPULAR!!"

Lol basically myconius King really made me hate Bane. I am sick of him.

Darkseid24 - i know. i'm pretty Bane'd out myself. but just remember, Just like Tom King's Batman, this is not really Bane. ALL of these characters that King has been writing are just weird twisted & perverted versions of them. i say in all honesty that Tom King is the WORST Batman writer i have ever read. even WORSE than Neal Adams. and that's really saying something.

Agreed, but he is still not the worst for me. Nothing beats Darkseid War in crappy writing for me ( And hopefully never will). I hope Tynion is doing a little better. Didnt like his Detective Comics& B&RE also sucked.

Detective Comics has been going down lately as well, I'd say it's okay, but not much more. I didn't even feel like reviewing its last issue or two.

Nihilist - Agreed! I that damn bi-weekly deadline is burning Tomasi out. the quality is not consistant, and we've been getting a series of "good arc, bad arc..." and the overall quality has been steadily dwindling. I'm hard pressed to keep buying it, but my respect for Tomasi as a creator and as a person are the only reasons I really stay with this series.

*I THINK that damn bi-weekly deadline is burning Tomasi out.

Like I said Tomasi can be very mediocre. Happened before in Arkham War& in the Arkham Knight comics. Wouldnt blame the bi-weekly schedule, since other writers still deliver. DC overall just currently has only mediocre writers.

as far as i'm concerned, every writer that has been on the bi-weekly has been turning in S#%T stories. even the runs that started out good eventually turned into crap. ...but i do think that DC has been filling their ranks with more and more crap writers. Bendis, King... it's getting to the point where i just want to re-read back-issues.

Yeah, I agree. It's just big names they care about, not really paying attention to what they write. Look at DC Black Label - it' been a disaster, with most of the material being plain terrible, but hey, DC's gotta release something, anything, because they've created a mature brand, so it needs to be kept alive. And then the bi-weekly series, so the flagship properties are monetized, even if it hurts their reputation and quality in the long run...

Nihilist - excellent points made on all topics!

I like majority of Black Label titles, but apart from the cursing nothing is in it, that justifies Black Label. Doug Moench wrote good stories& he wrote Detective Comics& Batman both for a while. So I think writers can, if they actually are talented enough.

I guess DC needs to hire Chip Kelly to push Tom out for a bit!

It may help his pacing Jim:)

You've been gone a while.

Missed You Buddy!

You know... life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and all that. Yes egon244 I ya e been gone awhile. I’ll be in and out. I can explain all that later over virtual coffee! Thanks Weird Science Jim! Nice to hear from you too!!

It could be that, or it could be because this series really sucks. Like bad. No one is in character and we’re over half way through and still seem no closer to knowing what the ell is going on.

People dont spend money on things they hate. And we do have a clue about what is going on. Its in the book.

Hear me out, not everyone has the same experiences/interests that you do. Plus there’s the whole free-will thing that allows people to an opinion. I think this series is awful, but I’m reading it because unfortunately it effects my favourite characters and I want to know what happens to them.

Or they just don’t agree with you. I don’t think this issue is that bad as most reviews make it sound, but it’s far away from a 10 for me either. The bad dialogue ruins it.

What have Batman and the Flash investigates? How has this dealt with any mental health? Harley, Batgirl, Booster, Blue Beetle, Superman, everyone is written out of character. This series is just bad man. I’m glad you’re willing to overlook all of the flaws and enjoy it but it’s bad.

The story doesn’t have to deal with mental health, I don’t know why people are constantly saying that. Would be kind of boring if we just hear the heroes whining over nothing.

Tom King has said many times that mental health is at the centre of the series. Sometimes it’s nice to see representation of mental health to know that your negative experiences are shared and you’re not alone. Imagine how beneficial it could be for someone with severe depression to know that their favourite hero experiences something similar. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a positive mental health message (which you won’t find with this series anyway).

The writer said it’s about mental health. It’s not like we’re making this up. It’s the premise that the writer gave us. He just has no idea how to handle it.

there are some sites and people who review something whether they like it or not because...they are reviewers not fanboys. They want to tell people if they think something is good or bad or in-between. Yea, sometimes it sucks doing it when you aren't enjoying something, but you still read and review it hoping the next issue is better. Now, someone who thinks over half the books they read are perfect (10/10)... You don't fool me!

I didn't expect that a book about flying beings would portray mental health accurately. I don't see it as a problem. They worry that they didn't save this star system or that moon blew up, not that they don't have the will to get out of bed in the morning.

As for characters being "out of character". I personally hate that argument. I think that every fan or writer will view a character in a different way. So each fan will like something different about hero or villain and each writer will portray them differently.

the issue there egon is everything leading up to the book from DC and Tom King pushed the mental health angle and it is the idea that they can't get out of bed in the morning, or why would they go to the Sanctuary to relive awful moments and talk about times they died. The confessionals haven't been about moons blowing up, they have been moments Tom King has tried to mine for emotional impact because of the mental health angle.

it is very over the top and forced imo and instead of seeing the healing POV, we are just getting the forced emotions from it in a murder mystery...but even the murder mystery angle is forced with little to no clues to let the reader play along

Seems like the marketing did much more harm than good.

Ah ok, well maybe the mental health part comes later& whoever is the murderer( I suspect one) did it because he/ she went crazy. I hate when characters are out of character. If you know them, then you don’t write them out if character. If Batman talked like an idiot& did some stupid jokes all the time, he of course would be out of character.

i wonder if it was Tom King's idea to exploit mental illness? or if the idea came down from DC Editorial?

From the interviews I saw, King came up with it and DC added in the murder mystery part. Maybe in a more capable writers hands it could have been down but King just doesn’t have the talent.

Haven't read this issue yet, but I follow enough people here to have this thread thrown in my face. Just chiming in to say almost all of Tom King's work has dealt with mental health. And I think this one might be the most lacking in that regard.

If he only dealt with mental health in a more intelligent way. This can be interesting, but it always appears pseudo intellectual like someone already stated.

one of my problems is the book seems stuck between which mystery it wants to look at...the who did vs the why they did it. It's been treading water and we now have 4 issues left BUT 2 are the added in issues that are not story issues as much as they are flashback Sanctuary issues to give us more of an idea of what Sanctuary is

issues #6 and #9 are the ones added afterwards

I wish we could get a Secret Empire release schedule for this. Two to three issues a month. Then it'd be over quicker!

You know some people buy this series not because they love it,but because it affects their favourite characters,right?

That’s true. I mainly read it because it affects so many characters.

Hang in there! You are not the only one that is upset about it.

Your review made me sad. Tom King has gone from "the new Alan Moore" to "a total douchebag".

I don’t take these stories so personal, but I also don’t think King was disrespectful towards mental ill people. All he did was showing, that heroes also have issues. Happened before, Jason also went psycho, because he couldn’t deal with his trauma.

Darkseid24 I face the same problem on Facebook, every time I try to talk about MY experience and how I feel for a book, people try to nullify my opinion and experience. I've supported everything from Tom King. This book, I feel it's disrespectful towards people suffering from mental disorders. Being one I feel it was disrespectful towards me. It's very simple and very clear.

Sorry to hear that, but how is it disrespectful? Nothing happened apart from characters getting killed off& heroes talking about their problems.

I sniffed out this series before it began and only bought issue 1 to sample. Even the most supportive fans have acknowledged odd characterization, non-traditional methods, and sour tone of this series. I've said it before, but I think this series is more about Tom King sharing his PTSD than presenting characters dealing with PTSD. I just don't think mainstream comic books should be about characters suffering from depression and PTSD. Superhero comics should be aspirational.

I keep reading it, because it affects so many characters. Could be true, but isn’t PTSD reliving trauma through flashbacks? I don’t think that was shown in any issue. As a fan of the villains& I’m reading comics just because of them, I don’t think they need to be aspirational, but that’s only my opinion. I understand if people have other expectations than me.

"I've battled with my thoughts, battled with my sexuality, I want both depicted correctly." How can King possibly depict your exact experiences?